CW Mace and Kar Vastor vs. Neo

[General Kenobi]

Neo faces off against CW Mace (who lovingly destroyed an entire army on Dantooine) and Kar Vastor (the Lor Pelek). The Jedi can't use their lightsabers, but they can use the Force. Who wins?

[Traya]

In what setting? In the Matrix, the fight is somewhat skewed in Neo's favour.

[sith'ari]

I'll assume that the setting's the same as it was at KMC.

1. The Matrix.
Neo's power is unlimited inside the Matrix, whereas the force doesn't exist inside the Matrix which limits what the force users can do. Neo pwns.

2. Haruun Kal Jungles.
Neo is powerless inside the SW universe, Mace and Kar pwn.

[General Kenobi]

Master Sith'Ari, just how do you at all think that I am PK from KMC? For all you know, I could be....

[sith'ari]

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t429543.html

That was a hint.

[General Kenobi]

How do you know that I didn't just copy from PK?

[Illustrious]

How do you know that I didn't just copy from PK?
Because that's borderline theft with just how closely you copied :p.

Anyway, this is off-topic, stick to the match.

[Silencer S]

1. The Matrix.
Neo's power is unlimited inside the Matrix

I disagree. Potentially, Neo is omnipotent in the Matrix. But (this is my personal interpretation), he didn't have the will to reach this potential. When you cut him he bleeds. When you overwhelm him he falls. He's not God, but he's pretty damn powerful.

A more fair fight would be Neo in the first Matrix film vs Mace. I could see that going either way.

[sith'ari]

Sure, in the movies, but in the comics he really does become omnipotent. You also have to remember that the force doesn't exist outside of the SW galaxy, which limits what the force users can do.

[Silencer S]

I'm assuming this is set in a neutral Universe where both sides can use their powers.

I based my post off the films... I haven't read any of the comics yet, so it's possible I'm cutting Neo short.

[Captain REX]

Why would you assume otherwise? :P

I would exchange my KMC currency for EoD currency and put that on Neo. Some of the things he does are just way beyond what Jedi are able to achieve with the Force. The Force can perform amazing feats, but Neo's powers rely on the fact that his world isn't real. He can do anything. Well, almost anything. Depends on willpower, I suppose?

[Nai Fohl]

Sure, in the movies, but in the comics he really does become omnipotent. You also have to remember that the force doesn't exist outside of the SW galaxy, which limits what the force users can do.

Since the movies are basically the "canon" for the Matrix series, I'd go with the movies and ignore the comics. And the force does exists outside the SW galaxy as we saw the Yuuzhan Vong once were capable of using it and they are coming from another Galaxy.

Still...if the fight happens in some "neutral" universe (so basically a Matrix with the force) I still can see the Jedi winning. Neo is damn powerful, yes. Still...his powers are limited. He can bend or brake certain physical laws within the Matrix (flying, super speed, parry weapons with his bare hands) but his abilities are still limited.

If a normal sword is able to wound him, what would a lightsaber or a vibroshield do which are capable of cutting metal like butter ? And force powers ? How would Neo be able to resist a force crush, a force choke or even basical telekinesis (push, pull) ? What would he do against opponents who are potentially able to move as fast as he does while fighting (force speed) and do have precog on top of this, aside from using weapons that are far beyond everything Neo can come up with ?

[sith'ari]

Since the movies are basically the "canon" for the Matrix series, I'd go with the movies and ignore the comics.

Since when? I myself don't know, but considering that the manga came before the movies, and that the movies are based on them, I'd find it more likely that the comics are a higher form of canon.


And the force does exists outside the SW galaxy as we saw the Yuuzhan Vong once were capable of using it and they are coming from another Galaxy.

Ok, let me rephrase what I said. Since the force doesn't exist outside of the SW mythologies, Mace and Kar would be very limited in what they could do inside the worlds of the Matrix mythologies.

[Nai Fohl]

Since when? I myself don't know, but considering that the manga came before the movies, and that the movies are based on them, I'd find it more likely that the comics are a higher form of canon.


Considering that you are damn wrong with this, you actually don't have an argument.


Ok, let me rephrase what I said. Since the force doesn't exist outside of the SW mythologies, Mace and Kar would be very limited in what they could do inside the worlds of the Matrix mythologies.

Look at the starting post. The Jedi are allowed to use the force. Neo has no defence against the force and didn't show any telekinetic abilities. Hence Kar and Mace simply crush him unless he's nowadays able to apply telekinesis.

[sith'ari]

Considering that you are damn wrong with this, you actually don't have an argument.

LMAO!!
OK, I'll just go and take your word for it, even though you provided no argument whatsoever.

Look at the starting post. The Jedi are allowed to use the force.

Did I say that they couldn't? All I said was that their use would be limited inside a setting where there isn't as much of the force as there is in the SW mythologies (the force doesn't exist in the setting, but is still a part of Mace and Kar, so they would be able to draw upon the force to an extent, but not as efficiently as they could in the SW mythologies). Less of the force to draw upon means that their use of the force wouldn't be as effective as before, as their connection would be seriously reduced in such a case. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't be able top sense Neo, nor directly alter the environment.

didn't show any telekinetic abilities.

He does in Reloaded, when he telekinetically pulls two swords to his hands, while fighting the Merovingian’s lackeys in his mansion.

[Nai Fohl]

LMAO!!
OK, I'll just go and take your word for it, even though you provided no argument whatsoever.

Matrix the movie was the first thing to be released. There were no comics or other stuff before that. Than they release Animatrix and the two other films. So...


Did I say that they couldn't? All I said was that their use would be limited inside a setting where there isn't as much of the force as there is in the SW mythologies (the force doesn't exist in the setting, but is still a part of Mace and Kar, so they would be able to draw upon the force to an extent, but not as efficiently as they could in the SW mythologies). Less of the force to draw upon means that their use of the force wouldn't be as effective as before, as their connection would be seriously reduced in such a case. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't be able top sense Neo, nor directly alter the environment.

Since you aren't the threadstarter, you can't define the setting. If it says they can use the force, they would be able to do that just as effective as they do in the original SW sources. In case of CW Mace that means that he can perform impossible movements (running speed, jumps) and punch through solid durasteel with his bare hands. And Kar isn't much worse than that - just physically stronger and bigger than Mace.


He does in Reloaded, when he telekinetically pulls two swords to his hands, while fighting the Merovingian’s lackeys in his mansion.

Oh. I did forget that. You are right. Doesn't mean he would be able to block some heavy weight stuff thrown in his direction or move some heavy objects around telekinetically by himself. Otherwise I don't see any reason for him to actually fight people / agents if he can toss them around with a handmovement.

[sith'ari]

Matrix the movie was the first thing to be released. There were no comics or other stuff before that. Than they release Animatrix and the two other films. So...

Weird, I always heard that the manga was released first, and that the films were based off of them.

Since you aren't the threadstarter, you can't define the setting.

Neither can you. I just thought it would be logical to go under the same conditions that were set on the KMC thread.

If it says they can use the force, they would be able to do that just as effective as they do in the original SW sources.

Not necessarily, if they are in a setting where the presence of the force has been severely diminished (no force in the actual Matrix universe, however considering that Mace and Kar are from the SW Galaxy, and everything from the SW Galaxy is made up of the force, there is still some of the force to draw from (from themselves), but not as much as there would be in the SW Galaxy), the force wouldn't feel as strong to them, and it would have the same effect of basically just reducing their connection.

So basically, the force users strength with the force would be considerably weakened (possibly to the level on incompetence), and they would only be able to use the force on themselves (force speed, heal etc.).

[Nai Fohl]

Weird, I always heard that the manga was released first, and that the films were based off of them.

Obviously wrong.


Neither can you. I just thought it would be logical to go under the same conditions that were set on the KMC thread.


Oh. I didn't. I just said that all the threadstarter has defined is that the Jedi can use the force. I don't see anything about "limited force use" there so I have to assume it's "use the force like they have shown to use it".


Not necessarily, if they are in a setting where the presence of the force has been severely diminished (no force in the actual Matrix universe, however considering that Mace and Kar are from the SW Galaxy, and everything from the SW Galaxy is made up of the force, there is still some of the force to draw from (from themselves), but not as much as there would be in the SW Galaxy), the force wouldn't feel as strong to them, and it would have the same effect of basically just reducing their connection.


Estimating that the fight happens within the Matrix this would apply...maybe. Technically there are no physical limitations given to the force meaning, in terms of the SW universe it's the force that keeps the universe together and is generated by every living being.
However...the matrix is essentially a virtual reality designed to fake "real life" so to say. So if you link two force users to it, they would expect their own powers to work there and that might lead to having their original force powers still working.

Outside the Matrix, Neo is pretty much toast anyways since his special powers there are limited to the machines.


So basically, the force users strength with the force would be considerably weakened (possibly to the level on incompetence), and they would only be able to use the force on themselves (force speed, heal etc.).

You are still argueing from a position that favors Neo from the beginning on which doesn't make sense. If it's a neutral setting (Jedi can use the force, Neo can use his powers) your "limited force strength" theory doesn't apply - otherwise the thread doesn't make sense.

So estimating it happens on a neutral setting, I can see Neo having problems dealing with force attacks and in sheer melee combat I can also see him having problems with people that do possess superhuman speed, precognition and can hammer their bare hands through solid space age metal.