Which team wins?

EDIT: Oops. Requesting move to live media. Thanks!

If Traya can use drain immediatly, then I see no way for the duo to win.

The insta-kill is a cheap move. She wins if she can have it.

I don't think that Traya could use her 'instakill' in this situation. (I put instakill in '' because it's not actually an instakill, just a Force ability that killed particular people instantly, but would not work against anyone.) I think that she can only use it when the Exile is present; why didn't she use it on Sion when he attacked her? Without her instakill, I strongly doubt that she can take both Dooku and Maul in combat. Each of them are better than her in saber combat. If Maul attacks her with his saber I think Dooku should have no problem keeping her from doing any significant attacks with the Force.

Well, in that case, you make a very good argument. She should lose with no insta-kill move. She's pretty smart but nothing too awesome in sabers or The Force. Especially compared to Dooku and Maul.

We saw how easily Traya kept the most powerful jedi masters at bay, Maul will never come close to her. Dooku however, would possibly do that, and if he did, it'd be the end for her...

Traya has lost to Sion before in Melee combat (Twice; Once Sion beat her up and then Sion cut her hand off in a swordfight.) and Nihilus didn't even have to express effort when he threw her into a pillar.

Traya was powerful, but she's going against one of the greatest Jedi Assassins and a Sith who was said to be the greatest Jedi and the most skilled Lightsaber combatant.

She goes down.

This opponent is too much for the duo. I am fairly sure that neither of them can stand against her force powers. She could increase her distance from the duo with a force wave. They could try and withstand using a force shield, but given how she tore through three of the top masters of KOTOR times without raising a hand leads me to believe that neither of them have enough power in the force to shield themselves from her attacks.

After the distance is increased between them, she could strike with any of her force attacks. I doubt they are skilled at deflecting the drain attack she could use.

I know that many would argue that Traya cannot use the force drain whenever she wants because she does not use it against Sion. To me, this hypothesis is falsifiable because her not using the drain could be for other reasons.

First reason that appeals to me
A) She was just recently cut off from the force, and hence not at full power. She was overpowered by both Nihilus and Sion, whom we can all come to the agreement are VERY powerful sith lords.

Another reason, though not quite as probable
B) Sion’s nature (replenishing and holding his body continuously from drawing on the darkside around him) would act as a counter balance to Traya’s drain. Since the two abilities seem to be the opposite, (that is Traya draining her opponent of the force, and Sion’s ability to replenish himself from the force around him) their techniques could end up canceling each other out and overall nothing happening. She may have realized this and decided not to use the technique.

This opponent is too much for the duo. I am fairly sure that neither of them can stand against her force powers. She could increase her distance from the duo with a force wave. They could try and withstand using a force shield, but given how she tore through three of the top masters of KOTOR times without raising a hand leads me to believe that neither of them have enough power in the force to shield themselves from her attacks.
I seriously doubt Traya's too much for one of the most powerful Jedi masters in the history of the Order and one of the best Sith apprentices...you really think those masters are above Dooku and Maul?

After the distance is increased between them, she could strike with any of her force attacks. I doubt they are skilled at deflecting the drain attack she could use.
And she's skilled enough to stop Dooku from choking her from a distances?

I know that many would argue that Traya cannot use the force drain whenever she wants because she does not use it against Sion. To me, this hypothesis is falsifiable because her not using the drain could be for other reasons.
Or we could use Occam's Razor and decide she could not

First reason that appeals to me
A) She was just recently cut off from the force, and hence not at full power. She was overpowered by both Nihilus and Sion, whom we can all come to the agreement are VERY powerful sith lords. So are Maul and Dooku. And Traya had more than enough time to regain her power

Another reason, though not quite as probable
B) Sion’s nature (replenishing and holding his body continuously from drawing on the darkside around him) would act as a counter balance to Traya’s drain. Since the two abilities seem to be the opposite, (that is Traya draining her opponent of the force, and Sion’s ability to replenish himself from the force around him) their techniques could end up canceling each other out and overall nothing happening. She may have realized this and decided not to use the technique.

Or it could've been more likely that it'd have removed Sion's abilities completely and would have cost her nothing to try

I seriously doubt Traya's too much for one of the most powerful Jedi masters in the history of the Order and one of the best Sith apprentices...you really think those masters are above Dooku and Maul?

Insofar as they were all veterans of a galaxy spanning war that involved melee combat on a day-to-day basis, and they were some of the best in that order at the time; I'd put them on the same rough level.

And she's skilled enough to stop Dooku from choking her from a distances?

Oh, please; Lightsnake. Traya's portrayed to be something of a veritable titan in the force in KotOR II, especially noting the way in which she casually waltzes into the temple courtyard and demolishes three Jedi masters without so much as showing any signs of effort.

Or we could use Occam's Razor and decide she could not.

Elaborate, Lightsnake. Please, I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I seriously doubt Traya's too much for one of the most powerful Jedi masters in the history of the Order and one of the best Sith apprentices...

As Traya pointed out, seeing how these three Jedi masters have faced far more force and lightsaber combat than the majority of masters in other eras given:

1) Revan’s invasion of the New Republic with his dark Jedi servants
2) Malak’s subsequent attack on the Republic
3) Nihilus and Sion’s dark Jedi assassins
4) Vrook and Kavar most likely saw the Jedi Civil war brought on by Kun as described by Jolee.

Then I would say Traya, not so much as lifting a hand, tossing them away and instantly killing them with her technique would bode very well for her in this battle.

Maul will not be able to defend against her attack in the slightest. There is little evidence to suggest that he could resist Traya’s prowess. Dooku may try and fight back, but given Traya’s much larger knowledge base and also her refinement and strength in the force, there is little evidence to suggest that he could resist her force attacks.


And she's skilled enough to stop Dooku from choking her from a distances?

Oh, please; Lightsnake. Traya's portrayed to be something of a veritable titan in the force in KotOR II, especially noting the way in which she casually waltzes into the temple courtyard and demolishes three Jedi masters without so much as showing any signs of effort.

Or we could use Occam's Razor and decide she could not

Oh, are you a fan of the “Traya and Exile bond” belief? Please explain how the hypothesis that Traya can use the technique ONLY around the Exile does not contain far too many assumptions. You are assuming that the technique is based on their link, which has FAR too little (and faulty) proof to be counted valid.

So are Maul and Dooku.

Oh please dude? They are, in force power, near the level of Darth “I hold my ship together through sheer force power and mind control the entire crew whilst flying through the darkness of space” Nihilus? The same guy who singlehandedly drained the planet of Kataar? Or stronger than Darth “I can’t be killed” Sion. The guy who holds his body together through the darkside and sheer force of will, whilst fighting with incredible dexterity and strength as to beat the Exile and her companions on not just one occasion but most likely on the next occasion as well? You’ll pardon me if I remain skeptical.


And Traya had more than enough time to regain her power

So you assume… But can you prove it? From KOTOR, her strength fully surfaces when the Exile speaks to the Jedi masters. Prove up.

removed Sion's abilities completely and would have cost her nothing to try

Except possibly Sion’s lightsaber through her gut while she let her defenses down. Oh let’s not forget that Traya was recovering from fatal wounds (hint: she was so wounded, the crew thought she was dead)

As Traya pointed out, seeing how these three Jedi masters have faced far more force and lightsaber combat than the majority of masters in other eras given:

1) Revan’s invasion of the New Republic with his dark Jedi servants
2) Malak’s subsequent attack on the Republic
3) Nihilus and Sion’s dark Jedi assassins
4) Vrook and Kavar most likely saw the Jedi Civil war brought on by Kun as described by Jolee.
How many Jedi saw action whatsoever in The Great Sith War? How does this put them above Maul and Dooku who saw a great amount of action through their lives? Dooku participated in a war that destroyed the Mando base of power. Maul single handedly destroyed the armies of Black Sun....I'd call their experience far above those three masters


Then I would say Traya, not so much as lifting a hand, tossing them away and instantly killing them with her technique would bode very well for her in this battle.
which would, of course, work on two skilled Sith

Maul will not be able to defend against her attack in the slightest. There is little evidence to suggest that he could resist Traya’s prowess. Dooku may try and fight back, but given Traya’s much larger knowledge base and also her refinement and strength in the force, there is little evidence to suggest that he could resist her force attacks.
Maul was shown getting up while being blasted by force lightning like it was nothing. And since when does Traya have a large knowledge base and refinement than someone described as one of the most powerful in the history of the Order/




Oh, please; Lightsnake. Traya's portrayed to be something of a veritable titan in the force in KotOR II, especially noting the way in which she casually waltzes into the temple courtyard and demolishes three Jedi masters without so much as showing any signs of effort.
Oh, wow, she knows force drain, just like any random Sith assassin in that game! What's your point? It'd work on the Sith? How much time does it take to prepare? Would she use it in that situation given that she used it then because she was so angry at the Masters?
Situations and all. And last I checked, Dooku's built up as a titan in the Clone Wars. Traya's just not that special to other elites and Dooku's one of them



Oh, are you a fan of the “Traya and Exile bond” belief? Please explain how the hypothesis that Traya can use the technique ONLY around the Exile does not contain far too many assumptions. You are assuming that the technique is based on their link, which has FAR too little (and faulty) proof to be counted valid.
Who said I was a fan of that?



Oh please dude? They are, in force power, near the level of Darth “I hold my ship together through sheer force power and mind control the entire crew whilst flying through the darkness of space” Nihilus? The same guy who singlehandedly drained the planet of Kataar? Or stronger than Darth “I can’t be killed” Sion. The guy who holds his body together through the darkside and sheer force of will, whilst fighting with incredible dexterity and strength as to beat the Exile and her companions on not just one occasion but most likely on the next occasion as well? You’ll pardon me if I remain skeptical.
Now you're just begging the question and listing those to things that mean nothing in actual battle. And last I checked, Sion's immortality is a pure gameplay mechanic. Let's see him get up when he's cut into ribbons. Oh, and what'd Traya say..."There's no strength in the hunger he possesses?"




So you assume… But can you prove it? From KOTOR, her strength fully surfaces when the Exile speaks to the Jedi masters. Prove up.
You'll have to prove it was recessive. She had an entire game length to recover herself



Except possibly Sion’s lightsaber through her gut while she let her defenses down. Oh let’s not forget that Traya was recovering from fatal wounds (hint: she was so wounded, the crew thought she was dead)
Oh, but it's an INSTA KILL!
and she was in a Jedi trance last I checked...deadening one's vital signs with the Force is incredibly basic and doesn't have any bearing on wounds

Funny, Traya took down three Jedi Masters but couldn't take down Sion alone (Who was held together alone by the force) and Nihilus smashed her without effort (Chucking her against the wall in the cutscene) . . . Not to mention the Exile defeated her.



From what we've seen, Dooku has the direct ability to utilize the force in an expert style and Maul has great physical skills and expert Lightsaber skills (Seen in the "Darth Maul" issue comics)

Just because she can destroy three Jedi (Who's powers remain anonymous, BTW. We've never seen them display their powers. For all we know, Kit Fisto could destroy them) does not mean she can instantly destroy two Sith Apprentices, especially ones capable of great power.

How does this put them above Maul and Dooku who saw a great amount of action through their lives? Dooku participated in a war that destroyed the Mando base of power.

Care to elaborate? Does this actually mean anything with respect to his force powers.


Maul single handedly destroyed the armies of Black Sun....I'd call their experience far above those three masters

Defeating a bunch of thugs, does not mean that he can defend against Traya's superior force attacks. One does not imply the other.

Sorry, try again later.


which would, of course, work on two skilled Sith

Darth Maul would be destroyed. Any proof that he can defend against Traya's force attacks? She shot down three Jedi masters without so much as lifting a finger… I will continue to remain skeptical. Dooku could last longer, but I have yet to see an appealing argument on your part that he could resist Traya’s instakill.


Maul was shown getting up while being blasted by force lightning like it was nothing.

Like it was nothing? Exaggeration lightsnake? Now now, enough of that.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/Zephiel7/Darth_Maul_086-1.jpg

He was brought to the floor groaning initially by a blast of force lighting from a weakling Witch of Dathomir. A force user who is an insignificant speck compared to Traya, could bring him down initially. A force user of Traya’s caliber, who studied the Jedi academy for years as a historian, learned from the Ancient Sith base of knowledge that is a Malachor, and whom effortlessly instantkilled three Masters, would annihilate him.

Dooku might be able to last a moment longer, but I have yet to see an appealing argument that he could resist Traya’s instantkill.


And since when does Traya have a large knowledge base

Other than the fact that she was the historian of the Jedi Order, and hence had access to the largest number of holocrons, compounded with the knowledge base on Malachor where she developed her instantskill, I see that the amount that Dooku learned is not as big.

and refinement than someone described as one of the most powerful in the history of the Order
The fact that she overpowered three of top top masters of Jedi Order effortlessly without even making a movement when she was at full power is a testament to how well she can use these abilities. Have I seen as much from Dooku with respec to sheer force power… the answer, in short, no.


Oh, wow, she knows force drain, just like any random Sith assassin in that game!

Oh wow… downplaying attacks lightsnake? We can’t have any of that! It was far greater than a simple drain, and you know it. The Jedi masters were described as completely devoid of the force. In fact, she describes this particular version of the technique as "without any defence."


What's your point? It'd work on the Sith? How much time does it take to prepare?

The attack seemed to be rather instantaneous to me. Seeing how she could use it simultaneously and effortlessly on three war hardened commanders who were well versed with fighting against the darkside, Maul is going down fast. Dooku will be going down next.


Would she use it in that situation given that she used it then because she was so angry at the Masters?

What the? Are you making a claim that she needs to be "so angry" in order to use the technique. If so, I suggest you prove up.


Now you're just begging the question and listing those to things that mean nothing in actual battle.

Oh yes, having enough power in the force to hold a ship together while mind controlling the entire crew, and flying the same ship in outer space does not mean that he has great strength in the force! If we go by logical deductions, we can conclude that this implies his other force powers are of great effect. Let's not forget draining the planet of Qatar, which when put into context would lead him to have the edge in his battle against Traya with Sion by his side. When you factor in Sion who can hold his body together and remain a formidable fighter, Traya being overpowered by these two means zilch.


..."There's no strength in the hunger he possesses?"

Relying on cryptic quotes Lightsnake? Tsk Tsk. The fact that Nihilus can perform the feats that he does, obviously means he is powerful. Irrelevant, does not effect the outcome of my argument. Whatever type of power he possesses, it is large enough to make him a figurative “force titan”.

And last I checked, Sion's immortality is a pure gameplay mechanic. Let's see him get up when he's cut into ribbons.

Oh sure, ignore the that he was getting up over and over. The wounds that he sustained was stated to be enough to kill any other human being, as indicated by the medic on the Republic ship in KOTOR2. With this regard, we can conclude that he is holding his body together through sheer force of will, and keeping himself alive with only the dark side. Not to mention that he can still fight, enough to capture Jedi masters, and defeat the Exile and co.

You'll have to prove it was recessive. She had an entire game length to recover herself

I am sorry but I am going to say, WTF?!! The scene with Sion and her was in the beginning of the game when she was still recovering from being separated from the force. Also, the crew thought her wounds large enough to put her in a mortuary. She was not in prime condition.

Notice when she comes back to Malachor in the endgame, Sion shuts the fuck up and listens to her. She has clearly regained her power and then some at this point.

Oh, but it's an INSTA KILL!

LOL. Other than the fact that Sion has trained with Traya, consequently has a better understanding on the techniques she could pull off (if she was in prime condition, which she wasn’t), and the fact that they were in a compact chamber leading her to not have enough space to push Sion away…things would would not have worked out as well as you assume.


and she was in a Jedi trance last I checked...deadening one's vital signs with the Force is incredibly basic and doesn't have any bearing on wounds

Don’t try this with me, if you begin the game with the T3 droid, you see that Traya is laying on the ground unconscious. Obviously she is wounded. Why would she pretend with no one there?

Care to elaborate? Does this actually mean anything with respect to his force powers.



Defeating a bunch of thugs, does not mean that he can defend against Traya's superior force attacks. One does not imply the other.

And beating a bunch of ambiguous Jedi masters doesn't mean Traya can defeat Maul and Dooku. One doesn't imply the other

Sorry, try again later.

I'll let it stand now, thanks


Darth Maul would be destroyed. Any proof that he can defend against Traya's force attacks? She shot down three Jedi masters without so much as lifting a finger… I will continue to remain skeptical. Dooku could last longer, but I have yet to see an appealing argument on your part that he could resist Traya’s instakill.
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence and we saw Maul dismantle an elite Jedi master like Anoon Bondara. and once again: Dooku and Maul have the benefits of studying Sith techniques and holocrons, so they'd be much more well versed than three random Jedi



Like it was nothing? Exaggeration lightsnake? Now now, enough of that.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/Zephiel7/Darth_Maul_086-1.jpg

He was brought to the floor groaning initially by a blast of force lighting from a weakling Witch of Dathomir. A force user who is an insignificant speck compared to Traya, could bring him down initially. A force user of Traya’s caliber, who studied the Jedi academy for years as a historian, learned from the Ancient Sith base of knowledge that is a Malachor, and whom effortlessly instantkilled three Masters, would annihilate him.
Post the entire sequence or don't it at all! Maul looks up says she knows nothing of the Dark Side and slices her in half. And according to page 114 of the Complete visual guide, FL is unspeakably painful and almost impossible to resist, even for a trained Jedi master.

In an actual duel, Maul could cover the distance to Traya in a blink of an eye and put her on the defensive with no time to use the instakill. Isn't that she didn't use it against Sion? It takes time?

Dooku might be able to last a moment longer, but I have yet to see an appealing argument that he could resist Traya’s instantkill.

I've yet to hear how force drain's even an instakill by the PT


Other than the fact that she was the historian of the Jedi Order, and hence had access to the largest number of holocrons, compounded with the knowledge base on Malachor where she developed her instantskill, I see that the amount that Dooku learned is not as big.
I'm gonna put Darth Sidious's knowledge base above hers...and Dooku, as a Jedi master, had access to the most secret Sith holocrons in the Jedi temple. I see your point was just shot down.


The fact that she overpowered three of top top masters of Jedi Order effortlessly without even making a movement when she was at full power is a testament to how well she can use these abilities. Have I seen as much from Dooku with respec to sheer force power… the answer, in short, no.
Meaning...what? Dooku defeated a Jedi master who made those three look like kids at swords- Mace Windy- and Maul's, quote "One of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history." unquote.
and last I checked, she raised her hand before the attack was used.
and wasn't at full power? Prove up. EXACT proof.



Oh wow… downplaying attacks lightsnake? We can’t have any of that! It was far greater than a simple drain, and you know it. The Jedi masters were described as completely devoid of the force. In fact, she describes this particular version of the technique as "without any defence."
Wow, could it be Force drain DOES that! And when did she says "Force drain was without defense?" Lst I checked, Nihilus just cut her off.
and could it be she's wrong or that it changed in the subsequent three thousand years when the rebuilding Jedi Order saw it as a threat?
Hmmmmm!



The attack seemed to be rather instantaneous to me. Seeing how she could use it simultaneously and effortlessly on three war hardened commanders who were well versed with fighting against the darkside, Maul is going down fast. Dooku will be going down next.
You mean people who hadn't seen active combat until ten years before? And Traya was shown to raise her hand and it took a moment for it go into effect in the game.
And she didn't use it against Sion. Huh!



What the? Are you making a claim that she needs to be "so angry" in order to use the technique. If so, I suggest you prove up.
Don't play stupid. I'm talking about Traya's state of mind in her motivations. She'd have no reason to use it with Maul and Dooku



Oh yes, having enough power in the force to hold a ship together while mind controlling the entire crew, and flying the same ship in outer space does not mean that he has great strength in the force! If we go by logical deductions, we can conclude that this implies his other force powers are of great effect. Let's not forget draining the planet of Qatar, which when put into context would lead him to have the edge in his battle against Traya with Sion by his side. When you factor in Sion who can hold his body together and remain a formidable fighter, Traya being overpowered by these two means zilch.
Let's no forget he was owned by a complete average Jedi, tricked easily and blocking the flow of power to his ship hurls him to his knees a shell of his former self...
Oh, and Traya was the master, last I checked. And she knocked out by a force push and proceeded to get her ass kicked by Sion. When she should be able to use TEH INSTAKILL on his ass



Relying on cryptic quotes Lightsnake? Tsk Tsk. The fact that Nihilus can perform the feats that he does, obviously means he is powerful. Irrelevant, does not effect the outcome of my argument. Whatever type of power he possesses, it is large enough to make him a figurative “force titan”.
Awww, upset because it's more than you have? Tsk tsk.
and noone's ever denied Nihilus is strong. But I'll take Traya over you..."No strength in the hunger he possesses."
From the woman who trained him no less.



Oh sure, ignore the that he was getting up over and over. The wounds that he sustained was stated to be enough to kill any other human being, as indicated by the medic on the Republic ship in KOTOR2. With this regard, we can conclude that he is holding his body together through sheer force of will, and keeping himself alive with only the dark side. Not to mention that he can still fight, enough to capture Jedi masters, and defeat the Exile and co.
Last I checked, a lightsaber slash to the torso severs it. It doesn't bring up numbers and make a huge bar less red. Sion was shattered in the destruction of Malachor and refused to die.
And what Jedi masters did he capture? Lonna Vash? Oh, right, and you know his Sith assassins didn't how? When did the Exile lose to him? They were kicking his ass until Kreia told them to exit.
Let's cut him into pieces, use Dun Moch and see what happens


I am sorry but I am going to say, WTF?!! The scene with Sion and her was in the beginning of the game when she was still recovering from being separated from the force. Also, the crew thought her wounds large enough to put her in a mortuary. She was not in prime condition.
Right. she still had the Force and her abilities. And once again, in case you didn't get it: She was in a trance. Meaning she only appeared dead. Didn't hear a thing about wounds.
No proof for your assertion btw

Notice when she comes back to Malachor in the endgame, Sion shuts the fuck up and listens to her. She has clearly regained her power and then some at this point.
Or could it be his massive desire for her attention and craving for her affection? No, that'd be too easy



LOL. Other than the fact that Sion has trained with Traya, consequently has a better understanding on the techniques she could pull off (if she was in prime condition, which she wasn’t), and the fact that they were in a compact chamber leading her to not have enough space to push Sion away…things would would not have worked out as well as you assume.
Once again: No proof to your assertions.
And you need space to push now? Last I checked you could simply crush them against the wall...and the chamber was large enough given the large amount of space between the doors.
But she doesn't do anything but lose a hand. Could it BE she's not the almighty god you seem to think?


Don’t try this with me, if you begin the game with the T3 droid, you see that Traya is laying on the ground unconscious. Obviously she is wounded. Why would she pretend with no one there?
Or it could be she entered into a trance to anticipate what'd happen later.

No, wait, that's too logical

Funny, Traya took down three Jedi Masters but couldn't take down Sion alone (Who was held together alone by the force)

Honestly, I didn't see the fight at the beginning of the game as being that much of a fight. Kreia doesn't even attempt to defend herself and effectively lets Sion cut her hand off.

I'd argue that she was trying to show the Exile the strength of their bond, but whatever it was; she didn't lose to Sion.[qu

and Nihilus smashed her without effort (Chucking her against the wall in the cutscene) . . . Not to mention the Exile defeated her.

I suppose you didn't notice Nihilus' "force push" coinciding with the sentence "There are some techniques in the force, against which there are not defence." Or the fact that Traya - a Sith Lord - couldn't muster the power to pull her lightsabre towards her after Nihilus "force pushed" her.

From what we've seen, Dooku has the direct ability to utilize the force in an expert style and Maul has great physical skills and expert Lightsaber skills (Seen in the "Darth Maul" issue comics)

Just because she can destroy three Jedi (Who's powers remain anonymous, BTW. We've never seen them display their powers.

No, but we know that they were the masters in their their order at that time; an order that's quite used to fighting in wars against Sith.

For all we know, Kit Fisto could destroy them) does not mean she can instantly destroy two Sith Apprentices, especially ones capable of great power.

Oh, she won't instantly destroy them. But she has the upper hand against Maul. It's Dooku who'll give her the most trouble.

To Zephiel:

If you're going to post a comic, post it all. Maul basically shrugs her lightning off as mere annoyance and then slices her into two, as if he was absorbing the lightning after contact.





Honestly, I didn't see the fight at the beginning of the game as being that much of a fight. Kreia doesn't even attempt to defend herself and effectively lets Sion cut her hand off.

That's such crap. She was attempting to deflect her swings because she ended up doing so.

I love how she faked it with everyone. She faked it with the Exile, with Sion . . . Did she fake getting her ass beat by Sion? Fake getting smashed into a wall by Nihilus? Fake getting her powers stripped from her body?

Please. She was outmaneuvered by Sion. Plain and simple.

I'd argue that she was trying to show the Exile the strength of their bond, but whatever it was; she didn't lose to Sion.

Yes, she did. This would be the second time, actually.



I suppose you didn't notice Nihilus' "force push" coinciding with the sentence "There are some techniques in the force, against which there are not defence." Or the fact that Traya - a Sith Lord - couldn't muster the power to pull her lightsabre towards her after Nihilus "force pushed" her.

Ever think his force push was too powerful? Even as she attempted to use the force to bring her Lightsaber to her, she was unable to . . . Too weak . . .

She was a manipulative mastermind, but she was physically inept.




No, but we know that they were the masters in their their order at that time; an order that's quite used to fighting in wars against Sith.

Point being? You don't know how many wars they fought in. For all you know, they sat back and spectated. Even so, for all you know, they walked through the war with people hovering to their offensive heed.

There is no measurement of their power, and we've seen Traya only utilizes this capability with Jedi Masters.



Oh, she won't instantly destroy them. But she has the upper hand against Maul. It's Dooku who'll give her the most trouble.

Says who?

Maul would stomp her in a Lightsaber duel.

Maul would be offensively pushing her back while Dooku slung force powers like he was throwing confetti at a wedding. She would get a barrage of attacks and crumble.

And beating a bunch of ambiguous Jedi masters doesn't mean Traya can defeat Maul and Dooku.

Inasmuch as she defeated the three Jedi masters who were given far more exposure to dark Jedi and darkside force powers, and simultaneously, effortlessly, and without raising a finger means… well yes, one implies the other.

Maybe she would expend more effort (especially given Dooku) ,but this does not mean anything, she wins in the end.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence

This can only hold true if Maul is worthy of this claim. So far, he was brought low writhing in agony by a witch of Dathomir. I have little doubt that a force user who is infinitely stronger than a mere second rate witch serving the black sun would tear Maul to pieces. I am still waiting for proof that he can defend against the instakill.


and we saw Maul dismantle an elite Jedi master like Anoon Bondara.

An elite Jedi master? I see you throw the title, elite with little regard to the actual meaning of the word. Can you quantify Boondara’s power? How many dark Jedi has he fought? How much exposure does he have defending against dark side force powers.


and once again: Dooku and Maul have the benefits of studying Sith techniques and holocrons, so they'd be much more well versed than three random Jedi

Maul studied sith holocrons? Well, I don’t suppose he could have used a well placed blast of force lighting when he was fighting against the large number of pathetically weak goons sent by the black sun? Point is, he did not use the techniques when he needed it most… I remain skeptical that he actually learned any of Sidious’ technique. Sidious used him as a tool, and held, from the looks of it slight contempt towards this servant.

And Dooku? If he could produce this technique, he would have used it to “instankill” Obi Wan at least. As of yet, I remain unconvinced that they can defend against a force user that is apparently leagues above them.


Post the entire sequence or don't it at all! Maul looks up says she knows nothing of the Dark Side and slices her in half.

Of which I see you missed the point. He was brought down and groaning for pain when he felt that blast of lightning. It took him a moment to adjust and strike at the witch. You were exaggerating. (hint: you said that he could withstand the attack easily) If he was brought to the floor by a Wtch of Dathomir, he would be torn to pieces by Traya and her overall titanic force powers + instantkill.


And according to page 114 of the Complete visual guide, FL is unspeakably painful and almost impossible to resist, even for a trained Jedi master.

And its going to get a lot more painful when wielded by Traya, whom logic would point being leagues above said rather pathetic witch.


In an actual duel, Maul could cover the distance to Traya in a blink of an eye and put her on the defensive with no time to use the instakill.

Disregarding the fact that Traya more likely than not would be smart and instantaneously create a distance between her and Maul. Or send him writhing on the floor and dead in seconds by a blast of force energy.

Isn't that she didn't use it against Sion? It takes time?

What, I never said that… And if this is a claim, then I demand proof.

I've yet to hear how force drain's even an instakill by the PT

Disregarding that this was not the regular version of the technique but one that could not simply be learned. If we go by logic, Nihilus didn’t simply learn the technique, he had to become something akin to a phantom to use the technique. The Exile had to become a wound in the force. By logic, Traya also underwent something in order to produce the technique against the three Jedi masters.

I'm gonna put Darth Sidious's knowledge base above hers...and Dooku, as a Jedi master, had access to the most secret Sith holocrons in the Jedi temple. I see your point was just shot down.

Not quite as much as you’re grossly simplifying the matter, and hence being all around illogical. The fact is that Dooku was actually battlemaster, hence learning all the techniques of the lightsaber, expending overall less time in studying the holocrons of the order. Traya on the other hand was a historian, learning all the knowledge of the force and essentially dedicating her council career in the attempts of understanding and categorizing force techniques.

Oh we can’t forget that she also had all of Malachor to understand and learn from. Plus her little instantkill technique which was stated to have no defence.

And we have seen that the good count has not learned the unique techniques Traya has learned, else he would have at least tried it against Kenobi. For theatrical effect, point shot down.


Meaning...what? Dooku defeated a Jedi master who made those three look like kids at swords- Mace Windy-
Swords? Ohoho! I am afraid this is not just a matter of swordsplay, my boy. It is actually coming down to force prowess. Stalemating a weaker Windu in swordplay doesn’t really imply that he can resist Traya in an all out force battle.


and Maul's, quote "One of the deadliest Sith Apprentices in history.

Hur hur hur! Tis’ a good thing Traya is no Sith Apprentice, but a Sith Lord!

and wasn't at full power? Prove up. EXACT proof.

Asking me to prove a negative? Now now old boy, I am afraid if you wish to claim that Traya was at full power…then the onus is on you to provide proof. Do you have any proof? Any exact proof? No I did not think so.

Given that she was just recently cut off from the force, and that she was knocked unconscious and weakened when the Ebon Hawk was attacked, you’ll pardon me if I’m logical and think that she is not at full power. But you may keep your ridiculous position if it so appeases you!


Wow, could it be Force drain DOES that! And when did she says "Force drain was without defense?"

Correction…you do not understand subject matter at hand. She says that the specific ability that she learned in Malachor was “without any defence” and cannot simply be learned. And she says this in one of the conversation options that the Exile has with her.


Lst I checked, Nihilus just cut her off.

Reply to this, which details the exact circumstances, before you try to downplay someone based on a mere occurrence.

Oh yes, having enough power in the force to hold a ship together while mind controlling the entire crew, and flying the same ship in outer space does not mean that he has great strength in the force! If we go by logical deductions, we can conclude that this implies his other force powers are of great effect. Let's not forget draining the planet of Qatar, which when put into context would lead him to have the edge in his battle against Traya with Sion by his side. When you factor in Sion who can hold his body together and remain a formidable fighter, Traya being overpowered by these two means zilch.



and could it be she's wrong or that it changed in the subsequent three thousand years when the rebuilding Jedi Order saw it as a threat?
Hmmmmm!

Tsk, Tsk tsk! Malachor was destroyed, so information of the technique could not be passed down. Traya and all her knowledge were also destroyed. I believe it is obvious that the masters of the PT did not learn a defence to an “undefendable” technique, especially one that was lost to the passing of history (when Malachor blew up)!. I would like proof that they learned a defense to an undefendable technique. Oh, wait, you don’t have any. Nevermind.



You mean people who hadn't seen active combat until ten years before?

Downplaying again lightsnake? You are excluding the forty years prior, the civil war instilled by Kun, the one which Jolee had to fight his own wife. And these 10 years was ridden with far more lightsaber and force combat than something, say the clone wars. Enough downplaying, shits and giggles aside, these three Jedi Masters have significant exposure to dark side force powers.


And Traya was shown to raise her hand and it took a moment for it go into effect in the game.

Again, it seemed instantaneous to me, last couple of times I played. The masters had their lightsabers ignited, and could not even make a move as they were mercilessly slaughtered.

And she didn't use it against Sion. Huh!

This hackneyed and trivial stance again? Oh come now, I tire. We’ve been through this my boy! She was weakened. She was cut off. You have not offered proof of the contrary other than this “trance” bullshit which is clearly the unfavourable hypothesis since it requires far too many assumptions to be held valid.


Don't play stupid. I'm talking about Traya's state of mind in her motivations. She'd have no reason to use it with Maul and Dooku

You are assuming that it depends on state of mind. You are making an assumption, and an illogical one of that which was never implied IN the game. I suggest you prove up.



Let's no forget he was owned by a complete average Jedi, tricked easily and blocking the flow of power to his ship hurls him to his knees a shell of his former self...

LOL, I suppose we are missing out on how this Jedi was a “wound in the force”, the one thing that is the bane of Nihilus’ existence? Trying to drain the Exile brought Nihilus on his knees and weakened him. (in the game cinematic, he was clutching at his stomach) I am afraid your claim has done little else than make me laugh old friend!

Oh, and Traya was the master, last I checked. And she knocked out by a force push and proceeded to get her ass kicked by Sion. When she should be able to use TEH INSTAKILL on his ass

Hohoho! Before said event happened, she described the sequence as she was cut off from the force. Detained by Nihilus from resisting against Sion’s onslaught? Most likely think this, I do.



and noone's ever denied Nihilus is strong. But I'll take Traya over you..."No strength in the hunger he possesses."

A cryptic quote hardly works, especially given what Nihilus has shown. Falling back on cryptic quotes hardly supports your argument LS. I can see strength in a poetic or metaphorical sense, rather than a practical one in this condition. Is it possibly that you have nothing else to support you’re argument other than these cryptic quotes? The answer to this Joe? Joe says “yes”.


Last I checked, a lightsaber slash to the torso severs it. It doesn't bring up numbers and make a huge bar less red. Sion was shattered in the destruction of Malachor and refused to die.

Given that the narrative describes him as holding his body together through sheer force of will, I retain the position that a mere lightsaber wound can’t cut him to pieces.

And what Jedi masters did he capture? Lonna Vash? Oh, right, and you know his Sith assassins didn't how?

In her journal entry it explains it was Sion I believe. I will have to get back to you on this, not that it matters much.


When did the Exile lose to him? They were kicking his ass until Kreia told them to exit.

Given that Traya stated this opponent is too much for you… I remain skeptical.


Let's cut him into pieces, use Dun Moch and see what happens

Oh because taunts are going to break the will of someone who can hold his body together through sheer force of will. Sorry…enough with the downplaying. It’s not looking good on your reputation.

Right. she still had the Force and her abilities. And once again, in case you didn't get it: She was in a trance. Meaning she only appeared dead. Didn't hear a thing about wounds.
No proof for your assertion btw

LOL. This is great. I SAID when she was ON the ebon hawk, before she was EVEN on the mining ship, she was unconscious. Play the pregame intro, it shows Traya lying unconscious on an empty ship. Why would she be pretending to feign death when she is the only one on board in the middle of outerspace. None too logical I am afraid.



Or could it be his massive desire for her attention and craving for her affection? No, that'd be too easy
Once again: No proof to your assertions.

Laughable. Ever thought about how he initially and voluntarily betrayed Traya? He did not have Nihilus to back him up this time, and Traya had returned to full power. He wasn’t trying anything. Your assumption is illogical, discounted.

And you need space to push now? Last I checked you could simply crush them against the wall...and the chamber was large enough given the large amount of space between the doors.
But she doesn't do anything but lose a hand. Could it BE she's not the almighty god you seem to think?

Missing my point I see. It was a combination of factors. 1) recovering from being cut off from the force, 2) being attacked on board the ebon hawk and knocked out 3)Small room.

You haven’t disproven anything, only offered more faulty assumptions. You are formulating a hypothesis which requires too many assumptions (which are all over the place and coincidentally what support your illogical arguments) and applying them to Traya. The hypothesis with the least and most sensible assumptions, that she was tired, ( her lieing unconscious aboard the Ebon Hawk ACTUALLY *gasp* indicated ill health and not your cooky idea of “her in a trance”), she was recently cut off from the force, would lead her not be able to reproduce the instantkill instantaneously against Sion.




Or it could be she entered into a trance to anticipate what'd happen later.

For example here! The animation was her lieing down unconscious. She was ALONE in the Ebon Hawk. It hasn’t been boarded yet. You are making a claim that she was entering a trance whereas EVERYTHING points to her being unconscious. Why would she be lieing unconscious if she was in the middle of space, under fire?

If she was in a trance, I think she would look like it, given that there were was no one boarding the Ebon Hawk at that point.

Again I ask… prove up. If you have information that contradicts the obvious, I beg of you to show it.

Originally Posted by Traya View Original
Honestly, I didn't see the fight at the beginning of the game as being that much of a fight. Kreia doesn't even attempt to defend herself and effectively lets Sion cut her hand off.

That's such crap. She was attempting to deflect her swings because she ended up doing so.

I love how she faked it with everyone. She faked it with the Exile, with Sion . . . Did she fake getting her ass beat by Sion? Fake getting smashed into a wall by Nihilus? Fake getting her powers stripped from her body?

Please. She was outmaneuvered by Sion. Plain and simple.

Did you watch the cutscene with your eyes open? Kreia doesn't even attempt to deflect his swing. She's given all the opportunity to cut him down when he's got her back turned to her and he slowly ignites his lightsabre. Then he turns around and with no great speed, cuts her hand off.

Kreia had a weapon capable of deflecting his lightsabre at the ready, and she didn't even use it.

Originally Posted by
I'd argue that she was trying to show the Exile the strength of their bond, but whatever it was; she didn't lose to Sion.

Yes, she did. This would be the second time, actually.



Originally Posted by
I suppose you didn't notice Nihilus' "force push" coinciding with the sentence "There are some techniques in the force, against which there are not defence." Or the fact that Traya - a Sith Lord - couldn't muster the power to pull her lightsabre towards her after Nihilus "force pushed" her.

Ever think his force push was too powerful? Even as she attempted to use the force to bring her Lightsaber to her, she was unable to . . . Too weak . . .

She was a manipulative mastermind, but she was physically inept.[/quote]

I see you ignored the fact that Nihilus seems to have drained her.
[quite]Point being? You don't know how many wars they fought in. For all you know, they sat back and spectated. Even so, for all you know, they walked through the war with people hovering to their offensive heed.[/quote]

Hmm, Kavar is noted to be the former leader of the Jedi Guardians and Vrook mentions him to be too impetuous and warlike for his liking. I'd note that Vrook could possibly be

There is no measurement of their power, and we've seen Traya only utilizes this capability with Jedi Masters.

Provide evidence to back up your argument. Why is Traya restricted in using her drain?

Says who?

Maul would stomp her in a Lightsaber duel.

This would be brilliant . . . if Traya was actually depicted to fight with a lightsabre in a canon, non gameplay battle.

Maul would be offensively pushing her back while Dooku slung force powers like he was throwing confetti at a wedding. She would get a barrage of attacks and crumble.

Honestly, I don't think Traya's going to get tooled by any stretch of the word. It's useless to speculate on her combat abilities, insofar as she doesn't actually display her lightsabre skills in any canon battle.

Insofar as they were all veterans of a galaxy spanning war that involved melee combat on a day-to-day basis, and they were some of the best in that order at the time; I'd put them on the same rough level.
I'm extremely tired of hearing this. Those masters were apparently lounging on Dantooine that we saw ever since Zayne Carrick's little renegade scandal.
Dooku was one of the best the Order'd ever seen and Maul was apparently the same, given his ease in handling Anoon Bondara, and the other Jedi kills he saw as not even worthy of his time or ability. In fact, by TPM, Maul considers a worthy test to be Mace Windu or Plo Koon


Oh, please; Lightsnake. Traya's portrayed to be something of a veritable titan in the force in KotOR II, especially noting the way in which she casually waltzes into the temple courtyard and demolishes three Jedi masters without so much as showing any signs of effort.
I'd love to hear how this 'no effort' thing came about, honestly.



Elaborate, Lightsnake. Please, I want to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Traya wants to destroy the Sith. Traya has one of the Sith Lords facing her...the guy who would be exceptionally vulnerable to such an attack.
She does not use it. I think that provides a case

Did you watch the cutscene with your eyes open? Kreia doesn't even attempt to deflect his swing. She's given all the opportunity to cut him down when he's got her back turned to her and he slowly ignites his lightsabre. Then he turns around and with no great speed, cuts her hand off.

Oh my god, are you joking? Here's the scene:

Sion: I sense you, My Master. Faint . . . Weak . . .

Kreia: Your senses betray you . . . As you betrayed me.

Sion begins to walk towards Kreia while saying the following dialogue:

Sion: After all that has happened you still live . . . You are difficult to kill.

Kreia: For one as limited as you, perhaps. To have fallen so far and learned nothing . . . That is your failing.

Sion: The failure is yours. No longer do your whispers crawl within my skull, no longer do I suffer beneath teachings that weaken us!

Sion turns his back to Kreia as she walks up behind him . . .

Sion: And now you run in search of the Jedi . . . They are all dead, save one . . . And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come.

Kreia is directly behind Sion at this point with the Vibroblade in her hand.

Kreia: Perhaps. We shall see.

Kreia swings her sword in a fashioned motion, and grows into a battle stance, ready to fight Sion.

[i]Sion ignites his Lightsaber, and quickly turns around, briging a downswipe towards Trayas hand. Traya lets out a small whimper and falls to her knees.

She had lost her hand because she was the lesser component in being skilled within Lightsaber combat. She didn't purposely lose her hand, for crying out loud. It's that simple!

She didn't have the sword for no reason. She was not skilled enough to compete. Sorry.

Kreia had a weapon capable of deflecting his lightsabre at the ready, and she didn't even use it.

She didn't have time to use it. She got into a stance and Sion outmaneuvered her and sliced her hand off. Nothing indicates she faked anything. Get over it.


I see you ignored the fact that Nihilus seems to have drained her.

No, no, and No!

I'm tired of this! There was clearly no indication of draining! When Nihilus drains, an orange stream of energy comes from his fingertips. In the scene with Nihilus, Traya and Sion, Nihilus simply puts his hand forward and pushes her against a nearby wall, being why she goes back and drops her Lightsaber.

Hmm, Kavar is noted to be the former leader of the Jedi Guardians and Vrook mentions him to be too impetuous and warlike for his liking. I'd note that Vrook could possibly be

Possibly be what?

And, you're point? This isn't proof that he was not weak. There is no measurement to the power of these Jedi . . . Sorry!

Originally Posted by
There is no measurement of their power, and we've seen Traya only utilizes this capability with Jedi Masters.

Provide evidence to back up your argument. Why is Traya restricted in using her drain?

I didn't say she was restricted.

How come she didn't use this with Sion? Nihilus? The Exile? Why just these Jedi Masters? Can you prove she can even use it against Sith?

I mean, if she can do this to anyone, why not just go buckwild and use this instead of manipulating everyone?


This would be brilliant . . . if Traya was actually depicted to fight with a lightsabre in a canon, non gameplay battle.

Lmao! She was willing to fight a combat hardened Sion with a vibrosword. Why wouldn't she fight Maul?

Seriously.


Honestly, I don't think Traya's going to get tooled by any stretch of the word. It's useless to speculate on her combat abilities, insofar as she doesn't actually display her lightsabre skills in any canon battle.

She tries with the Exile and with Sion.

She loses both times so it's obvious she's just bad at using Melee combat.

The force? It seems shes quite advanced, but she is going up against two modernized Sith, one who has extensive power and knowledge with the force.

She had lost her hand because she was the lesser component in being skilled within Lightsaber combat. She didn't purposely lose her hand, for crying out loud. It's that simple!

She didn't have the sword for no reason. She was not skilled enough to compete. Sorry.
She obviously wasn't going all out on Sion; the two have a twisted history, considering what she put him through at the Academy and how he let her live after severing her hand. If it had been a real fight, either she would have done something with the Force or he would have slaughtered her, as you seem so inclined to think he could.

She didn't have time to use it. She got into a stance and Sion outmaneuvered her and sliced her hand off. Nothing indicates she faked anything. Get over it.
He "outmaneuvered" her? He turned around and swung his lightsaber. And if Traya had intended on using her instakill on Sion, she would have done so before she walked right up to him.

No, no, and No!

I'm tired of this! There was clearly no indication of draining! When Nihilus drains, an orange stream of energy comes from his fingertips. In the scene with Nihilus, Traya and Sion, Nihilus simply puts his hand forward and pushes her against a nearby wall, being why she goes back and drops her Lightsaber.
What are you, trying to be thick?
I suppose you didn't notice Nihilus' "force push" coinciding with the sentence "There are some techniques in the force, against which there are not defence." Or the fact that Traya - a Sith Lord - couldn't muster the power to pull her lightsabre towards her after Nihilus "force pushed" her.
This should - for anyone with an ounce of sense in their head - clear up that passage.

]Possibly be what?

And, you're point? This isn't proof that he was not weak. There is no measurement to the power of these Jedi . . . Sorry!

There is no measurement of their power, and we've seen Traya only utilizes this capability with Jedi Masters.
By your logic, we can't guage anyone's power by reputation, position, or experiences, meaning that Marka Ragnos is weak shit.

I didn't say she was restricted.

How come she didn't use this with Sion? Nihilus? The Exile? Why just these Jedi Masters? Can you prove she can even use it against Sith?
Sion? She wasn't trying to kill him. Nihilus and the Exile are holes in the Force, and we saw what happens when one attempts to drain a void. Use your head.

I mean, if she can do this to anyone, why not just go buckwild and use this instead of manipulating everyone?
I had to read this twice to see if I misinterpreted it. You need to think before you post BS like this.

Lmao! She was willing to fight a combat hardened Sion with a vibrosword. Why wouldn't she fight Maul?

Seriously.
Read the above.




She tries with the Exile and with Sion.

She loses both times so it's obvious she's just bad at using Melee combat.
Of course, a perfect observation, if she'd been trying either time.

The force? It seems shes quite advanced, but she is going up against two modernized Sith, one who has extensive power and knowledge with the force.
Laughable. These "modernized" Sith are nothing compared to the titans that came before them, and they're worse off for it.

Maul is an apprentice who was eventually defeated by a Jedi Padawan, and has no verifiable skill with offensive use of the Force whatsoever. Dooku is formidable, and is the only threat here, but Traya has an exponentially greater source of information and secrets - Malachor V, while Dooku has a few holocrons acquired by Bane's order. In the end, Maul isn't even a shadow of a threat here, and Dooku just won't be able to cope with Traya's vastly superior firepower.

Now, Sorgo, you and LSnake need to watch yourselves. I've been observing this thread, and while zephiel and Traya remain civil as ever you two keep spouting off and acting like belligerent asses. Consider this your first verbal warning.

She obviously wasn't going all out on Sion; the two have a twisted history, considering what she put him through at the Academy and how he let her live after severing her hand. If it had been a real fight, either she would have done something with the Force or he would have slaughtered her, as you seem so inclined to think he could. Sion letting her survive seems to be a product of mercy on his part. Throughout the game, Traya is shown as wanting the Sith destroyed as a threat to life. She names Sion as one of those three directly


He "outmaneuvered" her? He turned around and swung his lightsaber. And if Traya had intended on using her instakill on Sion, she would have done so before she walked right up to him. Unless she was incapable of doing it whenever she wanted



By your logic, we can't guage anyone's power by reputation, position, or experiences, meaning that Marka Ragnos is weak shit.
Of course he's not. But there's no reason to automatically throw him on top of everyone else like the way it used to be.

Sion? She wasn't trying to kill him. Nihilus and the Exile are holes in the Force, and we saw what happens when one attempts to drain a void. Use your head. Ok, so Traya doesn't want to try to kill one of the guys whose destruction she works towards the entire game? Sion is NOT a void in the Force and as the cut content shows, he's rather vulnerable to drains.


Laughable. These "modernized" Sith are nothing compared to the titans that came before them, and they're worse off for it. Absolute and utter bullshit. Path of Destruction has Bane deciding to make the Order great again, to compare to those titans of the past. Somehow these guys of the past were 'Titans?' The same titans who lost a battle on three planets and couldn't defeat a force of FOUR JEDI on Coruscant? Especially when the comic even points out that it's only a few Jedi? What were these 'titans' of the past? The ones who needed technology to do what they did?
Any account for page 115 of the Visual Guide? Maul was one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history? Dooku was one of the strongest Jedi in the history of the Order...how much more powerful did he get when he became a Sith
Once more: Ancient Bias.

Maul is an apprentice who was eventually defeated by a Jedi Padawan, and has no verifiable skill with offensive use of the Force whatsoever.
Generally because he prefers to use his pure fighting abilities, according to Shadow Hunter. And as of TPM, according to Shadow Hunter again, Maul was a possible match for Windu. Especially considering he was stronger than Qui-Gon Jinn

Dooku is formidable, and is the only threat here, but Traya has an exponentially greater source of information and secrets - Malachor V, while Dooku has a few holocrons acquired by Bane's order. In the end, Maul isn't even a shadow of a threat here, and Dooku just won't be able to cope with Traya's vastly superior firepower. Oh, give me a break: Dooku has a 'few' Holocrons acquired by the Bane order?
Well, he likely has Bane's, Andeddu's, maybe Nihilus's holocron, too. and by the way, just to make a point:
Dooku had access to the greatest secrets of the Jedi temple, INCLUDING the massive wallfull of Sith holocrons there that only the top Jedi masters were allowed to access. You going to try to tell me there's nothing in them?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Ni_cron.JPG
Here's Nihilus's spirit as summoned via his Holocron. Bane and Andeddu had them, too. And we know Bane himsef had the knowledge of two full Dark Lords, and Andeddu was more than like an Ancient himself- given his gear, tomb, and statue.


Now, Sorgo, you and LSnake need to watch yourselves. I've been observing this thread, and while zephiel and Traya remain civil as ever you two keep spouting off and acting like belligerent asses. Consider this your first verbal warning. Faunus, do show me where I've been more belligerent whatsoever than Zephiel? Remaining civil? You mean Zephiel's responses such as:
Oh please dude.
Oh, please; Lightsnake.
Sorry, try again later.
Relying on cryptic quotes Lightsnake? Tsk Tsk.
Swords? Ohoho!
Hur hur hur!
Now now old boy,
Tsk, Tsk tsk!
This hackneyed and trivial stance again? Oh come now, I tire. We’ve been through this my boy! Ma

Right, Faunus, Zephiel's remaining a perfect little angel and I'm to blame for anything going wrong. Make any excuses you want, but this isn't civil.
Where exactly did I act like a belligerent ass any moreso than Zephiel?

Inasmuch as she defeated the three Jedi masters who were given far more exposure to dark Jedi and darkside force powers, and simultaneously, effortlessly, and without raising a finger means… well yes, one implies the other.

Maybe she would expend more effort (especially given Dooku) ,but this does not mean anything, she wins in the end. Once more, I'm tired of hearing this, Zeph: For starters, she raised much more than a finger. How do these three have more exposure to Dark Side powers than Dooku and Maul, who were Sith themselves and studied the Dark Side on a regular, daily basis?
Moreover, with the instakill, she'd more than likely win. Remove it, and she's dead. Oh, and I'll thank you to stop behaving like an ass from here on out


This can only hold true if Maul is worthy of this claim. So far, he was brought low writhing in agony by a witch of Dathomir. I have little doubt that a force user who is infinitely stronger than a mere second rate witch serving the black sun would tear Maul to pieces. I am still waiting for proof that he can defend against the instakill. Absolute bullshit and possible twisting of the truth by you. Maul shrugs it off and cuts her in half. But you didn't bother to look at the next page, did you?
I'm waiting for proof this is an instakill, too. Considering Maul's master could use it on planetwide scales, it's not much a stretch


An elite Jedi master? I see you throw the title, elite with little regard to the actual meaning of the word. Can you quantify Boondara’s power? How many dark Jedi has he fought? How much exposure does he have defending against dark side force powers. Sure, Boondara was described as one of the top fighters of the Order. I'd say that's enough.



Maul studied sith holocrons? Well, I don’t suppose he could have used a well placed blast of force lighting when he was fighting against the large number of pathetically weak goons sent by the black sun? Point is, he did not use the techniques when he needed it most… I remain skeptical that he actually learned any of Sidious’ technique. Sidious used him as a tool, and held, from the looks of it slight contempt towards this servant. You mean in between butchering an entire army of the greatest killers in the galaxy? When did he 'need it most?' Last I checked, since you were so reluctant to post this:
Maul looks at the Nightsister, tells her contemptuously she knows nothing of the Dark Side and halves her. Recall, Force Lightning is almost impossible to deflect, period
Palpatine didn't have a trace of contempt towards Maul. He felt nothing towards him, plain and simple

And Dooku? If he could produce this technique, he would have used it to “instankill” Obi Wan at least. As of yet, I remain unconvinced that they can defend against a force user that is apparently leagues above them. Dooku was stronger and better than Obi-wan, so?
And once again: Traya has what to her name besides one instance of this? Besides getting her hand lopped off by Sion? Besides getting her rear handed to her by the Exile? Absolutely nothing but a vague, ambiguous move that has nothing going for it? Ok.


Of which I see you missed the point. He was brought down and groaning for pain when he felt that blast of lightning. It took him a moment to adjust and strike at the witch. You were exaggerating. (hint: you said that he could withstand the attack easily) If he was brought to the floor by a Wtch of Dathomir, he would be torn to pieces by Traya and her overall titanic force powers + instantkill. Don't see any groaning or gasping, Zephiel. Which does sort of imply you're not being totally truthful here. Are you neglecting how he stood up and sliced her in half seconds later?



And its going to get a lot more painful when wielded by Traya, whom logic would point being leagues above said rather pathetic witch. I love how you call her 'pathetic.' Given how powerful Nightsisters tended to be



Disregarding the fact that Traya more likely than not would be smart and instantaneously create a distance between her and Maul. Or send him writhing on the floor and dead in seconds by a blast of force energy. Given that there are two opponents, she'd be a corpse if she tried to focus on just one since those seconds are all an experienced warrior needs...going to try to tell me Traya's a better fighter than Maul?



What, I never said that… And if this is a claim, then I demand proof. She didn't use it against Sion but she had plenty of time to prepare for the other Jedi masters. Logical basis, much


Disregarding that this was not the regular version of the technique but one that could not simply be learned. If we go by logic, Nihilus didn’t simply learn the technique, he had to become something akin to a phantom to use the technique. The Exile had to become a wound in the force. By logic, Traya also underwent something in order to produce the technique against the three Jedi masters. Palpatine underwent no ill effects and had apparently mastered this technique well enough to use it on a global scale and against Carnor Jax's father...Mind explaining how the random Sith assassins could use it, too?



Not quite as much as you’re grossly simplifying the matter, and hence being all around illogical. The fact is that Dooku was actually battlemaster, hence learning all the techniques of the lightsaber, expending overall less time in studying the holocrons of the order. Traya on the other hand was a historian, learning all the knowledge of the force and essentially dedicating her council career in the attempts of understanding and categorizing force techniques. Dooku is eighty by AOTC, you don't think he'd have a little bit of time to do a bit of both? So, Dooku absolutely trumps Traya with a saber is what you're saying? Btw, if Kreia is Krynda Draay- and there are lots of hints she is- then she's apparently done little but play nursemaid locked up in the Draay estate since the Sith War.
And we have Dooku studying Sith holocrons as a fascination for years. Noone says Traya was crap with a saber btw, so why does a focus on one mean decay of the other skill?

Oh we can’t forget that she also had all of Malachor to understand and learn from. Plus her little instantkill technique which was stated to have no defence. And Dooku had a temple full of Sith holocrons...which wasn't there by Traya's time. And I'm getting very tired of this 'no defense' stuff, since just about every Sith underling seemed to know it and things change in four thousand years.

And we have seen that the good count has not learned the unique techniques Traya has learned, else he would have at least tried it against Kenobi. For theatrical effect, point shot down. why would he even need it against Kenobi? he took him out without expending himself whatsoever.
If someone steps on a bug instead of blasting it with a shotgun, that's proof of absence?



Swords? Ohoho! I am afraid this is not just a matter of swordsplay, my boy. It is actually coming down to force prowess. Stalemating a weaker Windu in swordplay doesn’t really imply that he can resist Traya in an all out force battle. Is it now? Not if these two close the distance, actually using that strategy thing, since I'll wager Maul's faster than Traya....and a weaker windu? Dooku was driving him back as of the Clone Wars and destroying Sora Bulq and Master Tholme at the same time, while owning Sora- a trained battlemaster and Vaapaf master- with a blast of lightning from one finger.
So, Traya has no time to pull off her instakill much, hm?



Hur hur hur! Tis’ a good thing Traya is no Sith Apprentice, but a Sith Lord! This is putting Maul on the level or abvoe the level of Mr. Sion, who was never anything more than an apprentice in the Sith Order.




Asking me to prove a negative? Now now old boy, I am afraid if you wish to claim that Traya was at full power…then the onus is on you to provide proof. Do you have any proof? Any exact proof? No I did not think so. I asked you to prove she was weakened. That's different. You made the claim, you back it up

Given that she was just recently cut off from the force, and that she was knocked unconscious and weakened when the Ebon Hawk was attacked, you’ll pardon me if I’m logical and think that she is not at full power. But you may keep your ridiculous position if it so appeases you! Recently? How long ago was she cut off Zephiel? Wanna prove it? Unconcious and weakened? For the final time: She was in a trance. When in a Jedi trance, you appear very dead.



Correction…you do not understand subject matter at hand. She says that the specific ability that she learned in Malachor was “without any defence” and cannot simply be learned. And she says this in one of the conversation options that the Exile has with her. I want the quotes



Reply to this, which details the exact circumstances, before you try to downplay someone based on a mere occurrence. Funny hearing this from you

Oh yes, having enough power in the force to hold a ship together while mind controlling the entire crew, and flying the same ship in outer space does not mean that he has great strength in the force! If we go by logical deductions, we can conclude that this implies his other force powers are of great effect. Let's not forget draining the planet of Qatar, which when put into context would lead him to have the edge in his battle against Traya with Sion by his side. When you factor in Sion who can hold his body together and remain a formidable fighter, Traya being overpowered by these two means zilch. Already answered





Tsk, Tsk tsk! Malachor was destroyed, so information of the technique could not be passed down. Traya and all her knowledge were also destroyed. I believe it is obvious that the masters of the PT did not learn a defence to an “undefendable” technique, especially one that was lost to the passing of history (when Malachor blew up)!. I would like proof that they learned a defense to an undefendable technique. Oh, wait, you don’t have any. Nevermind. [= Prove Malachor was the only source. Again: The technique WAS learned later, there is proof...and Nihilus created a holocron! Especially since the rebuilding Jedi Order has people who experienced the technique first hand, plus the Sith Civil War, which saw some Sith turn back to the light. Awww, think perhaps some of them might've known the technique considering even the lowest assassin used it? Think perhaps the wall of Holocrons of Atris's might've helped? Think perhaps, since Yoda was described to have mastered defenses against all of the deadliest techniques of the Darkside, maybe a few people did instead of relying upon your false and faulty information as any sort of proof?
oh, sorry, looks like your point is defeated!





Downplaying again lightsnake? You are excluding the forty years prior, the civil war instilled by Kun, the one which Jolee had to fight his own wife. And these 10 years was ridden with far more lightsaber and force combat than something, say the clone wars. Enough downplaying, shits and giggles aside, these three Jedi Masters have significant exposure to dark side force powers. Oh, you mean Kun's galaxy-conquering force of twenty Jedi, most of whom never saw more than one battle? I'm frightened. The Great Sith War hardly involved any Sith in any sort of combat
Oh, those masters apparently sat on their asses on Dantooine for most of the war, too. and they don't have more exposure then two people who were in the Darkside for years.




Again, it seemed instantaneous to me, last couple of times I played. The masters had their lightsabers ignited, and could not even make a move as they were mercilessly slaughtered. Probably because they stood in one place like idiots while Traya was screeching at them. Sith don't do that.



This hackneyed and trivial stance again? Oh come now, I tire. We’ve been through this my boy! She was weakened. She was cut off. You have not offered proof of the contrary other than this “trance” bullshit which is clearly the unfavourable hypothesis since it requires far too many assumptions to be held valid. Someone gets mad when his point his countered. Luke Skywalker was in this 'trance' once and it enabled him to survive an explosion in his own X-wing cockpit, whereupon he appeared dead to all signs, including the far more advanced technology that read his life signs



You are assuming that it depends on state of mind. You are making an assumption, and an illogical one of that which was never implied IN the game. I suggest you prove up. You mean implying anger would be necessary for a technique of the Darkside? Zephiel, you know what the Dark Side is?





LOL, I suppose we are missing out on how this Jedi was a “wound in the force”, the one thing that is the bane of Nihilus’ existence? Trying to drain the Exile brought Nihilus on his knees and weakened him. (in the game cinematic, he was clutching at his stomach) I am afraid your claim has done little else than make me laugh old friend! you mean visas Marr blocking Nihilus's link to the ship? Apparently you do that, Mr. Nihilus goes down very hard. and man, what a smart guy Nihilus is



Hohoho! Before said event happened, she described the sequence as she was cut off from the force. Detained by Nihilus from resisting against Sion’s onslaught? Most likely think this, I do. which is why the saber was even moving whatsoever...Was she cut off or just out of it from being slammed against the wall that hard?





A cryptic quote hardly works, especially given what Nihilus has shown. Falling back on cryptic quotes hardly supports your argument LS. I can see strength in a poetic or metaphorical sense, rather than a practical one in this condition. Is it possibly that you have nothing else to support you’re argument other than these cryptic quotes? The answer to this Joe? Joe says “yes”. Oh, but it's Traya's quote here. I'll take her over you in regards to Nihilus any day.




Given that the narrative describes him as holding his body together through sheer force of will, I retain the position that a mere lightsaber wound can’t cut him to pieces. Prove it, thanks.



In her journal entry it explains it was Sion I believe. I will have to get back to you on this, not that it matters much. You brought up the point, so back it up



Given that Traya stated this opponent is too much for you… I remain skeptical. "You cannot defeat him here when Korriban flows through him."
So, it was run or face an opponent who was empowered by the Dark Side on KORRIBAN and unkillable there. Right



Oh because taunts are going to break the will of someone who can hold his body together through sheer force of will. Sorry…enough with the downplaying. It’s not looking good on your reputation. Considering that's exactly what happened...



LOL. This is great. I SAID when she was ON the ebon hawk, before she was EVEN on the mining ship, she was unconscious. Play the pregame intro, it shows Traya lying unconscious on an empty ship. Why would she be pretending to feign death when she is the only one on board in the middle of outerspace. None too logical I am afraid. Your point? Because, I dunno, the ship is under attack? Luke used said trance to survive an explosion happening right next to him. Kyp Durron used it to survive almost EVERY BONE IN HIS BODY BEING BROKEN





Laughable. Ever thought about how he initially and voluntarily betrayed Traya? He did not have Nihilus to back him up this time, and Traya had returned to full power. He wasn’t trying anything. Your assumption is illogical, discounted. Your point being? He probably just realized betraying her the first time did nothing. By the second time he was broken on her will, plain and simple



Missing my point I see. It was a combination of factors. 1) recovering from being cut off from the force, 2) being attacked on board the ebon hawk and knocked out 3)Small room. Trance again. Doesn't she SAY this much when you meet her?

You haven’t disproven anything, only offered more faulty assumptions. You are formulating a hypothesis which requires too many assumptions (which are all over the place and coincidentally what support your illogical arguments) and applying them to Traya. The hypothesis with the least and most sensible assumptions, that she was tired, ( her lieing unconscious aboard the Ebon Hawk ACTUALLY *gasp* indicated ill health and not your cooky idea of “her in a trance”), she was recently cut off from the force, would lead her not be able to reproduce the instantkill instantaneously against Sion. No, actually, they're perfectly valid. You just don't like your perfect little assumptions shattered as that'd only have to get the idea into your head that just maybe your complete bias is a bit incorrect.






For example here! The animation was her lieing down unconscious. She was ALONE in the Ebon Hawk. It hasn’t been boarded yet. You are making a claim that she was entering a trance whereas EVERYTHING points to her being unconscious. Why would she be lieing unconscious if she was in the middle of space, under fire? Was it under attack? Yes? Ok. Then, she might've gone into a trance to appear dead to any boarders, survive the attack...I dunno, the things Kyp and Luke used them for?
She can see how people die, but can't anticipate things so close

If she was in a trance, I think she would look like it, given that there were was no one boarding the Ebon Hawk at that point. When in a trance like that, you appear as a corpse, what part of this is hard to get? Isolder looked at Luke with his eyes and used his computer after Luke's cockpit had just EXPLODED IN HIS FACE and saw he was dead even BEFORE the computer showed that Luke had no vital signs...Sounding familiar?
The ONLY thing Traya has going for her is her instakill, btw. Unless Dooku and Maul reach her beforehand. Or if Dooku uses his lightning to put her on defensive, allowing Maul to reach her.

Again I ask… prove up. If you have information that contradicts the obvious, I beg of you to show it. See above.

Sion letting her survive seems to be a product of mercy on his part. Throughout the game, Traya is shown as wanting the Sith destroyed as a threat to life. She names Sion as one of those three directly
Traya isn't your ordinary, slash-first Sith Lord, LSnake, and so her motives are always unclear. But if she'd actually intended to kill Sion she would have attempted to do so using her Force attacks.

Unless she was incapable of doing it whenever she wanted
Which, you'll note, I haven't denied as a possibility. But there's obviously more than one way for a masterful Sith Lord to kill someone.

Of course he's not. But there's no reason to automatically throw him on top of everyone else like the way it used to be.
Ok, so Traya doesn't want to try to kill one of the guys whose destruction she works towards the entire game? Sion is NOT a void in the Force and as the cut content shows, he's rather vulnerable to drains.
See the above.

Absolute and utter bullshit. Path of Destruction has Bane deciding to make the Order great again, to compare to those titans of the past. Somehow these guys of the past were 'Titans?' The same titans who lost a battle on three planets and couldn't defeat a force of FOUR JEDI on Coruscant? Especially when the comic even points out that it's only a few Jedi? What were these 'titans' of the past? The ones who needed technology to do what they did?
I suppose Revan - upon whose knowledge, it seems, the best of Bane's abilities are brought out - was a weakling? Please.

Any account for page 115 of the Visual Guide? Maul was one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history? Dooku was one of the strongest Jedi in the history of the Order...how much more powerful did he get when he became a Sith
You want to provided actual quotes instead of your questionable word? And again, Maul: Sith apprentice. I really don't see how this puts him above the veritable tank that is Sion, but okay. . . Dooku? He obviously hadn't improved enough to crush Yoda, or even Mace Windu.

Once more: Ancient Bias.
If had to hit someone through a computer, it would be you in an instant. This is hypocrisy at its best, really, considering the way you fellate every PT and post-PT character in the book.

Generally because he prefers to use his pure fighting abilities, according to Shadow Hunter.
Which does what, exactly, to prove he can take a hit or two from Traya?

And as of TPM, according to Shadow Hunter again, Maul was a possible match for Windu. Especially considering he was stronger than Qui-Gon Jinn
Oh, wow. Maul considered Mace Windu to be a worthy challenge. So did Grievous, and he got his ass kicked off a train. This does nothing except to cement Windu's reputation.

Oh, give me a break: Dooku has a 'few' Holocrons acquired by the Bane order?
Yeah, a few. Where is it said otherwise?

Well, he likely has Bane's,
The recycled knowledge of Revan, who learned from the same source as Traya.

Andeddu's,
Which holds. . . what?

maybe Nihilus's holocron, too.
Which exists only by the contradictory Legacycomics.

Dooku had access to the greatest secrets of the Jedi temple, INCLUDING the massive wallfull of Sith holocrons there that only the top Jedi masters were allowed to access. You going to try to tell me there's nothing in them?
Compared to Traya, who studied from the massive source of Jedi information that was Ossus? A compilation of all the knowledge of the Jedi, possibly since their conception 21,000 years before? Her time spent studying on Malachor V?

Traya's sources >>>>>>>>>>>> Dooku's sources. Period.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Ni_cron.JPG
Here's Nihilus's spirit as summoned via his Holocron.
From Legacy.But proceeding. . .

Bane and Andeddu had them, too. And we know Bane himsef had the knowledge of two full Dark Lords,
Two, yeah, one of which was Revan, who again, studied from the same source as Traya. Dooku's knowledge is recycled information which has passed through two Sith Lords, and whose original source was what Traya, Revan, and co. studied.

and Andeddu was more than like an Ancient himself- given his gear, tomb, and statue.
But what does that matter, as Ancients suck.

Faunus, do show me where I've been more belligerent whatsoever than Zephiel? Remaining civil? You mean Zephiel's responses such as:
Oh please dude.
Oh, please; Lightsnake.
Sorry, try again later.
Relying on cryptic quotes Lightsnake? Tsk Tsk.
Swords? Ohoho!
Hur hur hur!
Now now old boy,
Tsk, Tsk tsk!
This hackneyed and trivial stance again? Oh come now, I tire. We’ve been through this my boy! Ma

Right, Faunus, Zephiel's remaining a perfect little angel and I'm to blame for anything going wrong. Make any excuses you want, but this isn't civil.
Where exactly did I act like a belligerent ass any moreso than Zephiel?
Annoying, sure, but hardly punishable. I haven't even touched the bar yet, LSnake. Chill.

Once more, I'm tired of hearing this, Zeph: For starters, she raised much more than a finger. How do these three have more exposure to Dark Side powers than Dooku and Maul, who were Sith themselves and studied the Dark Side on a regular, daily basis?
I suppose the students of the Trayus Academy - located on a treasure trove of Sith knowledge to which they had full access - didn't immerse themselves in the Dark Side on a daily basis.

Moreover, with the instakill, she'd more than likely win. Remove it, and she's dead. Oh, and I'll thank you to stop behaving like an ass from here on out
"More than likely"? She'd annihilate them instantly with it. Without it, she'd have some trouble, but considering her first-hand experience with the secrets of Malachor stomps all over the regime that Maul and Dooku go through - the latter having to put on airs, and lead the CIS - she'd come through anyhow.

Absolute bullshit and possible twisting of the truth by you. Maul shrugs it off and cuts her in half. But you didn't bother to look at the next page, did you?
After she brings him to his knees, yeah.

And this isn't twisting of truth: it's revealing the part that helps your cause, as you love to do.

I'm waiting for proof this is an instakill, too. Considering Maul's master could use it on planetwide scales, it's not much a stretch
DE Sidious, decades later, and a completely different move.

Sure, Boondara was described as one of the top fighters of the Order. I'd say that's enough.
So were Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell. One of them happened to be the leader of the Jedi Guardians, in case you hadn't noticed, so there's a chance that he was the top duelist of the order.


You mean in between butchering an entire army of the greatest killers in the galaxy? When did he 'need it most?' Last I checked, since you were so reluctant to post this:
An army? Hardly. I believe there were seven who were mentioned as the best there were, and Maul didn't get through them without a scratch.

Maul looks at the Nightsister, tells her contemptuously she knows nothing of the Dark Side and halves her. Recall, Force Lightning is almost impossible to deflect, period
The Force lightning of a hired Nightsister, when used on a trained Sith? Hardly.

Dooku was stronger and better than Obi-wan, so?
And once again: Traya has what to her name besides one instance of this? Besides getting her hand lopped off by Sion? Besides getting her rear handed to her by the Exile? Absolutely nothing but a vague, ambiguous move that has nothing going for it? Ok.
Pfft. Again, by this logic Nihilus, Bane, and Revan have nothing to their names either.

Don't see any groaning or gasping, Zephiel. Which does sort of imply you're not being totally truthful here.
I suppose the red text uttered by Maul is laughter?

Are you neglecting how he stood up and sliced her in half seconds later?
I'm sure two or three rounds of dialogue occur in half a second, right?

I love how you call her 'pathetic.' Given how powerful Nightsisters tended to be
Powerful? Who?

Given that there are two opponents, she'd be a corpse if she tried to focus on just one since those seconds are all an experienced warrior needs...going to try to tell me Traya's a better fighter than Maul?
Assuming you've played KotOR II, you'll notice that when Vrook charged her, she carelessly hurled him to the ground with a Force push, then contemptuously did so again when he stood back up. Vrook, one of the more powerful Jedi Masters of his Order. This isn't to say she'll toss either of these Sith to the ground and be done with them; but there are dozens of ways for her to temporarily even the odds.

She didn't use it against Sion but she had plenty of time to prepare for the other Jedi masters. Logical basis, much
She raised her hand. I'd hardly call that time-consuming.

And we have Dooku studying Sith holocrons as a fascination for years. Noone says Traya was crap with a saber btw, so why does a focus on one mean decay of the other skill?
See the above.

And Dooku had a temple full of Sith holocrons...which wasn't there by Traya's time. And I'm getting very tired of this 'no defense' stuff, since just about every Sith underling seemed to know it and things change in four thousand years.
Your flair for hyperbole is astounding.

why would he even need it against Kenobi? he took him out without expending himself whatsoever.
If someone steps on a bug instead of blasting it with a shotgun, that's proof of absence?
It is when he gets killed by that bugs companion.

Is it now? Not if these two close the distance, actually using that strategy thing, since I'll wager Maul's faster than Traya
I'd like to see them close the distance quickly with bolts of lightning, debris, and whatever else Traya can conjure up flying at them.


....and a weaker windu? Dooku was driving him back as of the Clone Wars
No, he wasn't. He and Mace fought until they reached a cliff, where two of his MagnaGuards yanked Windu off the edge so Dooku could escape. You'll notice he did the same with Yoda.

and destroying Sora Bulq and Master Tholme at the same time,
Something that Asajj Ventress might have done, what with her nearly killing Obi-Wan on almost half a dozen occasions, and having been in a position to kill Anakin himself.

while owning Sora- a trained battlemaster and Vaapaf master- with a blast of lightning from one finger.
Which a hesitant Mace Windu did with a Force push. He engaged him until he needed to fight Ventress.

So, Traya has no time to pull off her instakill much, hm?
You mean no tim to wave her hand? Hardly.

This is putting Maul on the level or abvoe the level of Mr. Sion, who was never anything more than an apprentice in the Sith Order.
No it's not, not by a long shot. Last I checked Maul was undone by the stroke of a lightsaber and brought to his knees by the pain of lightning. Sion holds himself together with the Force. Literally.

I want the quotes
Same here, but on your part.

Funny hearing this from you
Already answered
These pretty much sum up everything I have to say about your arguments.

Prove Malachor was the only source.
It was without a shadow of a doubt the greatest.

Again: The technique WAS learned later, there is proof...and Nihilus created a holocron!
By who? Sidious? Details.

Especially since the rebuilding Jedi Order has people who experienced the technique first hand, plus the Sith Civil War, which saw some Sith turn back to the light.
Experiencing the technique means they can learn it? So I suppose a clone trooper can Force push because he saw Yoda do it. And where has another Sith other than those two demonstrated this technique on such a scale?

Awww, think perhaps some of them might've known the technique considering even the lowest assassin used it?
One, the magnitudes are different. By this logic, a youngling is comparable to Yoda because he can use telekenisis, too. zOMG!

Two, this is almost exactly what accused zephiel of doing.

Think perhaps the wall of Holocrons of Atris's might've helped?
If they'd been used by next-gen Sith, maybe.


Think perhaps, since Yoda was described to have mastered defenses against all of the deadliest techniques of the Darkside,]
By what, the RotS novelisation? Details.

maybe a few people did instead of relying upon your false and faulty information as any sort of proof?
oh, sorry, looks like your point is defeated!
Looks like your being. . . oh, a belligerent ass!

Probably because they stood in one place like idiots while Traya was screeching at them. Sith don't do that.
O rly? I say Dooku and Sidious doing a quite a bit of that on multiple occasions.


Someone gets mad when his point his countered.
Except you've yet to counter much.

you mean visas Marr blocking Nihilus's link to the ship? Apparently you do that, Mr. Nihilus goes down very hard. and man, what a smart guy Nihilus is
. . . What?

which is why the saber was even moving whatsoever...Was she cut off or just out of it from being slammed against the wall that hard?
From being cut off, obviously. Luke gets his face splattered all over the ground, then gets smacked into a ceiling of ice, but he manages to use the Force to achieve exactly what Traya was attempting.

"You cannot defeat him here when Korriban flows through him."
So, it was run or face an opponent who was empowered by the Dark Side on KORRIBAN and unkillable there. Right
So what? Sion was invincible there, what's your point? Obviously the Exile couldn't defeat him through swordplay and Force attacks, not without breaking his mind first, so this means nothing.

The ONLY thing Traya has going for her is her instakill, btw. Unless Dooku and Maul reach her beforehand. Or if Dooku uses his lightning to put her on defensive, allowing Maul to reach her.
See above.
I like how Traya has only one way of harming her enemies, but Dooku can choke, electrocute, hurl, or eviscerate his. This is. . . well, a lot of things, and none of them good. Personally, I think she can do all the above, plus crush, drain, stun, and instantly kill hers in a number of other ways.

Traya isn't your ordinary, slash-first Sith Lord, LSnake, and so her motives are always unclear. But if she'd actually intended to kill Sion she would have attempted to do so using her Force attacks.
Traya was more than happy to kill the Jedi herself. She said she wanted the Sith gone, along with the Jedi in the last scene at Malachor. So, either she didn't or she couldn't


Which, you'll note, I haven't denied as a possibility. But there's obviously more than one way for a masterful Sith Lord to kill someone.
Granted

See the above.
Agreed again


I suppose Revan - upon whose knowledge, it seems, the best of Bane's abilities are brought out - was a weakling? Please.
I was hardly referring to Revan there. I said PoD cemented Bane's order. Revan would definitely be up there as well.


You want to provided actual quotes instead of your questionable word? And again, Maul: Sith apprentice. I really don't see how this puts him above the veritable tank that is Sion, but okay. . . Dooku? He obviously hadn't improved enough to crush Yoda, or even Mace Windu.
Not being able to defeat two of the best Jedi ever is hardly a demerit. And he fought Mace a grand total of once after he became a Sith. and the two seemed rather evenly matched.
Sion was also a Sith apprentice his entire life. So was Ulic Qel-Droma

If had to hit someone through a computer, it would be you in an instant. This is hypocrisy at its best, really, considering the way you fellate every PT and post-PT character in the book.
Give me a break, I was throwing it against the ancients while you were downplaying people like Maul and Dooku. I never said anything about Revan-in fact, me praising Bane there would be a mark to Revan.


Which does what, exactly, to prove he can take a hit or two from Traya?
I'm using it to exemplift that Zephiel's premise that Maul's force powers suck because he doesn't use them on people he prefers to slaughter with his saber is faulty

Oh, wow. Maul considered Mace Windu to be a worthy challenge. So did Grievous, and he got his ass kicked off a train. This does nothing except to cement Windu's reputation. This is after Maul dominates Anoon Bondara, whom Qui-Gon and Obi-wan considered to be one of the best duelists in the Order, he wishes he had an opponent like Mace Windu or Plo Koon who would be a more worthy test of his skills. And once again: Maul is better than Qui-Gon, who, by all accounts is about an equal to Mace around TPM.



Yeah, a few. Where is it said otherwise?

Complete Visual Guide, and Legacy of the Jedi: Dooku had access to all the Sith holocrons of the Jedi Temple.

The recycled knowledge of Revan, who learned from the same source as Traya.
And whatever Bane got after, including what he found in Freedon Nadd's tomb


Which holds. . . what?

Considering Andeddu's 'one of those titans of the past' who was able to keep himself alive after his body started to decay, I'd say we'd learn more when Andeddu gets his book

Which exists only by the contradictory Legacycomics.
Legacy is canon, actually. There's not a single thing contradictory there.


Compared to Traya, who studied from the massive source of Jedi information that was Ossus? A compilation of all the knowledge of the Jedi, possibly since their conception 21,000 years before? Her time spent studying on Malachor V?
And Dooku who studied from the sources of the Jedi temple on Coruscant, who had the Great Holocron, a compilation of 25,000 years of knowledge of the entire Jedi Order?

Traya's sources >>>>>>>>>>>> Dooku's sources. Period.
I'm sure.


From Legacy.But proceeding. . .
Which doesn't contradict a damn thing. There's nothing that declares Legacy NC, anymore than it did KOTOR which was worse with continuity


Two, yeah, one of which was Revan, who again, studied from the same source as Traya. Dooku's knowledge is recycled information which has passed through two Sith Lords, and whose original source was what Traya, Revan, and co. studied.
Not to mention all those other Sith holocrons, plus the Jedi sources of the massive library. And the other Dark Lord whose holocron Bane has is:
A. An ancient Sith holocron Freedon Nadd discovered
B. Adas's holocron itself
C. The holocron of an Ancient Sith Freedon Nadd retrieved from Ashas Ree.


But what does that matter, as Ancients suck.
Hardly. They're just not the all consuming, all poerful Gods of Star Wars that utterly destroy everyone at once that so many used to think they were


Annoying, sure, but hardly punishable. I haven't even touched the bar yet, LSnake. Chill.
I am chilled. What irritates me is listing him as civil, while throwing me as the one who's apparently beeing insulting, baiting, flaming, etc. I honestly don't care about what's punishable, but reprimanding me while saying he's being fine grated on me


I suppose the students of the Trayus Academy - located on a treasure trove of Sith knowledge to which they had full access - didn't immerse themselves in the Dark Side on a daily basis.
We were discussing those three masters vs. Maul and Dooku. I'll remind you that a single Holocron apparently held more knowledge and power than all of the knowledge contained on Korriban and required only several weeks to learn everything.


"More than likely"? She'd annihilate them instantly with it. Without it, she'd have some trouble, but considering her first-hand experience with the secrets of Malachor stomps all over the regime that Maul and Dooku go through - the latter having to put on airs, and lead the CIS - she'd come through anyhow.
Really now? She's stronger than Maul and Dooku combined? A better fighter? Last I checked, Dooku was described as one of the strongest Jedi in the history of the Order. Since apparently Dooku and Maul's 'recycled' info, coupled with Andeddu's for Dooku, Palpatine's teaching
Here we go again: Everyone in the PT sucks, everyone before the PT era is godly...
Please, Faunus. Without it, Traya is butchered on the spot by one of the deadliest Sith apprentices and Count Dooku. This 'Secrets of Malachor' crap is somehow the end-all be-all? Ok, what about everything Dooku had from the Great Holocron, the massive wall full of Sith holocrons, Bane's holocron which had more than just all of Revan's Dark Side knowledge-that's what PoD said, btw, All.

After she brings him to his knees, yeah.

Yes, being blasted by force lightning when you're in midair will tend to do that.

And this isn't twisting of truth: it's revealing the part that helps your cause, as you love to do.
so, crowing about him apparently being defeated when he shrugs it off seconds later isn't twisting the truth?


DE Sidious, decades later, and a completely different move.
Try OT era. And Force Drain is Force Drain.


So were Kavar, Vrook, and Zez-Kai Ell. One of them happened to be the leader of the Jedi Guardians, in case you hadn't noticed, so there's a chance that he was the top duelist of the order.
Moreso than Revan? I find that very unlikely



An army? Hardly. I believe there were seven who were mentioned as the best there were, and Maul didn't get through them without a scratch.
Seven elite bodyguards. Maul sliced through all the armies of the remaining seven Vigos beforehand without suffering a scratch.


The Force lightning of a hired Nightsister, when used on a trained Sith? Hardly.
Once again: Maul slaughtered her in seconds. How many times do you think he'd even experienced FL before?


Pfft. Again, by this logic Nihilus, Bane, and Revan have nothing to their names either.
They, unlike Traya, at least did quite a bit.


I suppose the red text uttered by Maul is laughter?
Shock, perhaps. Maul was conditioned never to cry out in pain, remember.


I'm sure two or three rounds of dialogue occur in half a second, right?

Or simply taking time to inform her she knew absolutely nothing. Maul's been shown to draw out things before

Powerful? Who?

Yeah, Nightsisters? The ones who kill a garrison of stormtroopers by 'making a raking gesture of their fingers?'

Assuming you've played KotOR II, you'll notice that when Vrook charged her, she carelessly hurled him to the ground with a Force push, then contemptuously did so again when he stood back up. Vrook, one of the more powerful Jedi Masters of his Order. This isn't to say she'll toss either of these Sith to the ground and be done with them; but there are dozens of ways for her to temporarily even the odds.
The Key word is temporarily. I'm putting Maul and Dooku above Vrook any day of the week.


She raised her hand. I'd hardly call that time-consuming.

Dooku needs to raise a finger to blast a trained Jedi battlemaster against a wall and Maul can cover how much distance in the time it takes to do that

Your flair for hyperbole is astounding.

Traya DIDN'T say that the Sith assassins have it?
And no, it's a wall filled full of Sith holocrons, gathered over the course of a thousand years. In Legacy of the Jedi, a young Dooku and Lorian Nod steal one of them

It is when he gets killed by that bugs companion.

Point is: he didn't need to use anything more power than that to incapacitate OBi-wan

I'd like to see them close the distance quickly with bolts of lightning, debris, and whatever else Traya can conjure up flying at them.

Yet they can't do the same to her? Sounds like they don't even need to close the difference


No, he wasn't. He and Mace fought until they reached a cliff, where two of his MagnaGuards yanked Windu off the edge so Dooku could escape. You'll notice he did the same with Yoda.
That's what he call driving him back. Dooku had that set up

Something that Asajj Ventress might have done, what with her nearly killing Obi-Wan on almost half a dozen occasions, and having been in a position to kill Anakin himself.
You'll notice the times she's fought Obi-wan, she had a lot of factors in her favor, such as:
A. Him poisoned by nerve gas.
B. Him weakened by possibly weeks of torture
C. A rancor helping her out
And Ventress's taunt to Anakin was just that: A taunt. She never won a match with Anakin, that's telling.
And Ventress would've stood to Tholme and Sora simultaneously? The same Sora who was matching Mace during the comic? Sora the Vaapad master?


Which a hesitant Mace Windu did with a Force push. He engaged him until he needed to fight Ventress.

Probably because Sora was expecting Mace to press the assault in a saber duel. He was fighting to subdue Sora until then.

You mean no tim to wave her hand? Hardly.

Before Dooku raises a finger?

No it's not, not by a long shot. Last I checked Maul was undone by the stroke of a lightsaber and brought to his knees by the pain of lightning. Sion holds himself together with the Force. Literally.
If Sion is Haazen then he's been doing it since he was a Jedi. Last I checked, Nihilus brought Sion to his knees, too. And it couldn't be that Maul was brought down by a blast of energy while in midair.


Same here, but on your part.

What are you talking about? I never cliamed to have a quote contrary to his on this point

These pretty much sum up everything I have to say about your arguments.

And so on and so forth

It was without a shadow of a doubt the greatest.

Now you'll have to prove up. Greater than Korriban, Ziost, numerous other Sith strongholds, holocrons, the spirits of the Ancients themselves and the like?

By who? Sidious? Details.

Yep. I'll call draining a world of the force, feeding off the force and life energy of billions and the like the same.

Experiencing the technique means they can learn it? So I suppose a clone trooper can Force push because he saw Yoda do it. And where has another Sith other than those two demonstrated this technique on such a scale?
Faulty logic, Faunus. A clone Trooper isn't force sensitive. I'd say that considering the rebuilding Jedi Order might very well have taken special care to focus on such a technique. and who said anything about scale? I'm talking about the technique in general


One, the magnitudes are different. By this logic, a youngling is comparable to Yoda because he can use telekenisis, too. zOMG!

Why? Traya describes the Sith troopers as feeding on the force energy of their victims. Because they never used it to the same magnitude, that means they're incapable of it? Is it impossible to fathom that just maybe force drain just isn't as mind blowingly invincible by later times?


If they'd been used by next-gen Sith, maybe.

Which, as they were apparently part of the holocrons kept by the Jedi in later years, that Dooku accessed and Palpatine later came into possession of, apparently they did.


By what, the RotS novelisation? Details.
Legacy of the Jedi, Power of the Jedi. The ROTS novelization doesn't say anything about his defensive capabilities that I can recall


Looks like your being. . . oh, a belligerent ass!

As opposed to telling someone they'd like to hit them through the monitor and all the other choice quotes from Zephiel provided.
Hm, did I attack him there? No, I said he was relying on false and faulty info and went after his argument. As the forum rules allow.

O rly? I say Dooku and Sidious doing a quite a bit of that on multiple occasions.
While another dangerous Sith is in front of them? When?



Except you've yet to counter much.

To someone who thinks that everything contemporary and post PT are the absolutely low points, I suppose that might be

. . . What?
Dialogue choice. Blocking the flow of power from the Ravager has the same effect as Visas killing herself


From being cut off, obviously. Luke gets his face splattered all over the ground, then gets smacked into a ceiling of ice, but he manages to use the Force to achieve exactly what Traya was attempting.
The saber doesn't exactly spring to Luke's hand instantly.


So what? Sion was invincible there, what's your point? Obviously the Exile couldn't defeat him through swordplay and Force attacks, not without breaking his mind first, so this means nothing.
To someone skilled with Dun Moch, breaking Sion might not be the height of difficulty. And I've yet to hear how Sion will somehowprevent his head from being seperated by a weapon that will burn through his bones and flesh while cauterizing them.
His immortality seems more the design of gameplay

I like how Traya has only one way of harming her enemies, but Dooku can choke, electrocute, hurl, or eviscerate his. This is. . . well, a lot of things, and none of them good. Personally, I think she can do all the above, plus crush, drain, stun, and instantly kill hers in a number of other ways.
Sure, so can Dooku and Maul. But Traya is apparently better for some inane reason

She obviously wasn't going all out on Sion; the two have a twisted history, considering what she put him through at the Academy and how he let her live after severing her hand. If it had been a real fight, either she would have done something with the Force or he would have slaughtered her, as you seem so inclined to think he could.

She was ready to battle him. It's that simple! She wanted to duel him. That was a clear indication when she hastily ended the conversation and went into stance.


Not everyone always kills each other during a fight. And for all you know, she persuaded her way out of Sion beheading her. The cutscene ended abruptedly and all of the sudden, they're working together. The exile becomes aware of Traya tricking Sion. Ever think Traya used verbal manipulation on the Republican Ship?



He "outmaneuvered" her? He turned around and swung his lightsaber. And if Traya had intended on using her instakill on Sion, she would have done so before she walked right up to him.

She can use her instakill on anyone? Including Sith? Hell, like I mentioned, she could've used it on everyone if she wanted to get rid of the force (This was her ENTIRE mission, just to let you in on that) because the capability she uses strips the selected user of their force powers. Hell, why not use it on Nihilus? Or everyone else?

You ever see her instakill a Sith? Especially when it's nessecary? I did not think so.

And like I said, she was ready to battle him. There is not a single indication it was all part of her manipulation charade. You do know that not everything she does is a part of some bigger plan, right?

Or everytime she takes a piss, it's for a more elaborate, complex reason, right?

Didn't think so.


By your logic, we can't guage anyone's power by reputation, position, or experiences, meaning that Marka Ragnos is weak shit.

Why wouldn't he be? Do you have proof he is some demi god with the magic of the Sith? What have you been using to gauge his power lately? Because he's thousands of years old? LMAO!




Sion? She wasn't trying to kill him. Nihilus and the Exile are holes in the Force, and we saw what happens when one attempts to drain a void. Use your head.

Prove she wasn't trying to kill Sion, FFS! She was fully prepared to do battle with him. He was getting in her way and she got cut trying to step up. Fairly simple.

And all the Sith they ran into on their mission? Why not just shove her hand out and uber-drain every single one of them?


I had to read this twice to see if I misinterpreted it. You need to think before you post BS like this.

Irrelevant. Post a rebuttal instead of avoiding my argument, please.


Read the above.

I ask you to do the same.


Of course, a perfect observation, if she'd been trying either time.

Lmao, yes . . . She went in a stance for no reason with Sion and after losing in combat, whipped out three floating Lightsabers just for the fun of it.

I'd give teeth to see your proo . . . Sorry, assumptions, for this one.


Laughable. These "modernized" Sith are nothing compared to the titans that came before them, and they're worse off for it.

Prove up. The burden is upon you.

Maul is an apprentice who was eventually defeated by a Jedi Padawan, and has no verifiable skill with offensive use of the Force whatsoever. Dooku is formidable, and is the only threat here, but Traya has an exponentially greater source of information and secrets - Malachor V, while Dooku has a few holocrons acquired by Bane's order. In the end, Maul isn't even a shadow of a threat here, and Dooku just won't be able to cope with Traya's vastly superior firepower.

Yeah, A Padawan that is able to stand against Dooku, defeat a General utilizing four Lightsabers who has killed Jedi Masters countless times and defeat the chosen one who ruthlessly destroyed Dooku in combat.

Don't just sling ranks for the fun of it. Remember who was hanging onto a metal pipe during that battle, and remember who Darth Maul killed during that battle . . . One of the most powerful Jedi Masters of that time? Why, I THINK SO! :p

We've seen Darth Maul avoid direct sprays of Force Lightning wrapping around his body and we've seen him literally crush droids using the force and he also killed someone just by looking at them. Yeah, so weak.

Secrets? Says who? Dooku has been around for years and lots have happened and now techniques and technologies have been discovered. Logically, he would have more access and a larger quantity to select when it came to information such as Sith Holocrons and the Lore of the Jedi/Sith. Dookus been on both sides of the equation too, you know.

Traya has to deal with two accomplished Sith here. They're both very powerful and are good with their blades. She goes down.

Now, Sorgo, you and LSnake need to watch yourselves. I've been observing this thread, and while zephiel and Traya remain civil as ever you two kee