Darth Bane: Rule of Two novel coming up.

[zephiel7]

A sequel to Darth Bane: Path of Destruction is being published since it was apparently a smash hit. The sequel will focus more on Bane, his reign as the dark lord, and his relationship with his apprentice, Zannah.

I for one thought the first one was a great read with an emphasis on some of the more interesting preriods of Star Wars history. It's good to see them shift the focus away from Luke's dorky nephew and niece - at least for the time being.

[Janus]

It ought to be interesting indeed. Nice to have a shift away from the movie/post-movie era and into something brand new.

[Nai Fohl]

Well...
Bane is also linked to the movie Sith pretty much because the existing Sith Order is his creation. I don't expect to learn too much new things there after having read PoD.

I hope they will once come up with some novels about some of the Ancient Sith. Nadd or Andeddu would be nice characters to do some stories with I guess.

[Janus]

I agree. I'm surprised that Darth Andeddu made a comeback to chide one of the Legacy-era Sith, along with Nihilus and some other dork.

[zephiel7]

I agree. I'm surprised that Darth Andeddu made a comeback to chide one of the Legacy-era Sith, along with Nihilus and some other dork.

Bane. :lol:

I agree that a book on Nadd would be interesting - or perhaps Ragnos. For some reason, Sadow and Kressh never appealed to me with their constant bickering. They seemed so... petty. Ragnos on the otherhand commanded respect.

[Silencer S]

We know much more about Sadow, Kressh, Qel'Droma and Kun than, say, Nadd or Ragnos.

Problem here is that by writing a novel in that era, we're opening a whole new window to the SWU. That's not a bad thing by any means, but the main reason why I was skeptical about the first Bane novel was that they had a newbie write it. Don't get me wrong -- it turned out well, but if we're going to set a novel 5000 years before the movies, in a time with new technology, characters (the minor ones. We pretty much know the main ones), settings, planet, ideas, traditions... I'd want a more experienced writer to do it. I want someone good for it.

[Illustrious]

Yeah, Nadd, Ragnos, and Andeddu have really only appeared as ghosts. It'd be good to have some details about them. I suppose you could throw Simus in that category too.

There's a lot more Sith to explore too. The SWU tends to leave quite a few timeline gaps.

[zephiel7]

There's a lot more Sith to explore too. The SWU tends to leave quite a few timeline gaps.

Exactly. Jedi too - like the ones in ancient times (around Ragnos, and Sadow times)

They are exhausting post movie novel ideas. At this point they seem rather contrived and unoriginal - I mean come on, wacky non force sensitive idiots from a planet never known or spoken of before? Keep churning books about the Skywalker line and pretty soon your going to make every single SW fan hate the mythos' iconic characters.

As for Karapshynn, I am confident in him writing the new novels. PoD is one of the better SW novels I've read - along with "Heir to the Empire Trilogy," or RODV. NJO is rubbish. Post NJO Jacen series is trash. Legacy of the Force comics are also pretty lame.

[Janus]

Legacy series strikes me as absolute heresy, really.

I think novels covering Nadd would be interesting, and the ancient Sith. Or even a recap on the original Schism, with dark lords like Xendor and Ajunta Pall.

[zephiel7]

Legacy series strikes me as absolute heresy, really.

It's bullshit. The Sith make a comeback - despite what Lucas forbids - no matter how idiotically you word it. The guy can shoot lightning, the guy controls the darkside - the guy is a motherfucking sith.


I think novels covering Nadd would be interesting, and the ancient Sith. Or even a recap on the original Schism, with dark lords like Xendor and Ajunta Pall.

Seriously. How long can hardcore OT and PT fans jack off to Luke Skywalker - they're being way to restrictive with SW's potential. Lets focus on how a badass like Nadd conquered all of Onderon, or how Adjunta Pall led some of the first dark Jedi against their masters. Flesh out SW's history.

[Janus]

Amen to that. I just haven't figured out why all the movie-centric purists have a stick up their collective asses about what EU does with the history. It's the one thing Lucas hasn't set in stone. Actually, Lucas' concern with EU extends only to his consideration with keeping his movie backstory consistant. Otherwise, he could care less.

And besides, the Clone Wars novels have been created; the post-ROTJ novels were already created. Should we just stop making material? That's silly.

[Illustrious]

Yeah, it really is ridiculous. I understand that it's easy because a character like Luke and the Skywalker name has recognition, but they seem to fail to understand that it's still Star Wars EU, and the casual fan isn't likely to read it.

[Silencer S]

I was hoping LFL would stamp their almighty "Infinity" tag on the Legacy series. Unfortunately, they did not. Originally, I felt KotOR was heresy (Incredibly different setting compared to the TotJ comics), but it's nothing compared to the Legacy series.

The reason why the EU writers keep pushing the Post-RotJ series is because it's easier. Previous writers already established the main themes, setting, characters, etc. A writer can just take what's previously established, add in their own plot, and publish it. Much easier than creating a brand new setting in a new era. Plus, there's the fact that if you pioneer a series of books into a brand new era, the first book has to be good. The post-RotJ series was extremely successful because of the masterful Thrawn novels -- and the fact is, most writers don't like that added pressure. Karpyshyn had balls.

Anyways, the NJO books are hard to get into, but once you get attached to the characters (Takes a bit of effort, though), the books are fine. Well, the first half absolutely sucks, but the end is epic. Couldn't care less about Dark Nest, and I haven't an opinion on LotF. I do think, though, it'll put an end to Luke Skywalker.

[sith'ari]

This book should be pretty dope, what with DK writing it, and how amazing a job he did on the first one. A book on Nadd would be pretty sweet also, as I'm guessing he was working against the Jedi in a similar style to Bane's Ro2 lineage, given the descriptions of Nadd's blaster in KotOR2 (that it had killed more jedi than any lightsaber) despite the Jedi of Kun's time not having any info on him after he became ruler of Onderon. Anyway, back to the topic, here's to hoping that Bane makes Dxun his b1tch. :fingerscrossed:

[zephiel7]

This book should be pretty dope, what with DK writing it, and how amazing a job he did on the first one. A book on Nadd would be pretty sweet also, as I'm guessing he was working against the Jedi in a similar style to Bane's Ro2 lineage, given the descriptions of Nadd's blaster in KotOR2 (that it had killed more jedi than any lightsaber) despite the Jedi of Kun's time not having any info on him after he became ruler of Onderon. Anyway, back to the topic, here's to hoping that Bane makes Dxun his b1tch. :fingerscrossed:

Long time no see.

Yeah, I am interested in seeing how Bane moves some moons. :p

[sith'ari]

Yeah, I know, I haven't really been doing the whole forum thing for a good month or so, kind of got boring after a while, ever since the Bane arguments died down really. Lol, I remember how we were pretty much the only ones who argued for him, now he's pretty much only mentioned once in a blue moon at KMC with both of us gone from what I've seen. Hopefully the book will respark those debates, he's by far the best character.

[Ewok Spai]

They absolutely need to write a book on Ragnos, Nadd, Andeddu, and Plagueis. We have very little about those 4 but we know they were very damn powerful. Also, a book on the ancient sith is a must, considering the main argument is always ancient sith vs. new sith. It wouldn't be bad to write about the first jedi from like 25000-10000 bby, since I get the feeling they were quite powerful and I think we would all benefit from getting an idea of how the galaxy operated during the early stages of the republic. Not to mention, there was what, 4 total jedi in GAOTS? That makes no sense. And hopefully GL will declare Legacy n-canon because that's what it deserves to be.

[Silencer S]

Very rarely does Lucas himself step in to declare something N-Canon. Of course, LFL may eventually get fed up and do it themselves.

[Illustrious]

Very rarely does Lucas himself step in to declare something N-Canon. Of course, LFL may eventually get fed up and do it themselves.
That's because very rarely does GL come in and read it.

[sith'ari]

They absolutely need to write a book on Ragnos, Nadd, Andeddu, and Plagueis. We have very little about those 4 but we know they were very damn powerful. Also, a book on the ancient sith is a must, considering the main argument is always ancient sith vs. new sith. It wouldn't be bad to write about the first jedi from like 25000-10000 bby, since I get the feeling they were quite powerful and I think we would all benefit from getting an idea of how the galaxy operated during the early stages of the republic. Not to mention, there was what, 4 total jedi in GAOTS? That makes no sense. And hopefully GL will declare Legacy n-canon because that's what it deserves to be.

Hmm, David... I recall a Darth Sexy being called Dave... Lol.

As for a book on Andeddu, I'm almost positive that the reason his character was included in Legacy issue #5 among the other sith lords was because they were thinking of writing a book based on his character. In fact, I'm pretty sure he came out on top on a poll on the official SW website that was asking for whom fans wanted a book to be based on. Well a book on him would be pretty nice, I must say, however I think LA should stick to the Darth Bane books for now.

[Ewok Spai]

Hmm, David... I recall a Darth Sexy being called Dave... Lol.
Yes detective dipshit, because that's my name. Dave is short for David. I would have used Dave here but that username was taken. Furthermore, I've already introduced myself as DS from KMC, in first post on this forum, so I suggest you avoid yourself further embarassment and leave the detective skills to the pros.

[sith'ari]

I would have used Dave here but that username was taken.

ROFL! That actually really did make me laugh out loud. Yes David, the username was already taken... By...YOU. As in you already made an account here... As in you got banned and are on your second account... And not being very slick about it... But anyways, no need for the vulgar language, I wasn't outright accusing you, it was all in good fun, so lighten up old chap. [/detectivedipshit]

[Ewok Spai]

So not only are you detective dipshit, you're some kind of psychic now? Gee Noobaris, I can't imagine WHY you got banned 8 times. Your assumptions make me giggle like a giddy school girl.

[sith'ari]

So not only are you detective dipshit,

And don't you forget it, boy!!

you're some kind of psychic now?

But of course. What, you don't believe me? Now come on Dave, if I wasn't psychic, how exactly would I know that at this very second, the exact thought on your mind is... what your and McGyver's kids would look like? Would our son inherit my double chin? Would our daughter inherit my flabby man boobs? You see?! That's proof in itself!!

Gee Noobaris, I can't imagine WHY you got banned 8 times.

Not surprised. I'm guessing there are a lot of things that your peanut sized brain can't imagine.

Your assumptions make me giggle like a giddy school girl.

...

Giggle like a giddy schoolgirl?

Way too much info, man. Stick to pretending that you're good at sports, it might not be so truthful, but it makes you seem a little less strange!

[Faunus]

Seriously, if this is why you came back you might as well leave again. We don't need this bullshit here; that's what KMC's for. So shut up, or get out.

[Ewok Spai]

To be fair Faunus, he didn't exactly leave. He was banned 8-9 times for his utter stupidity and complete lack of common sense. I guess he hasn't pissed off enough people here, yet.

[sith'ari]

Seriously, if this is why you came back you might as well leave again. We don't need this bullshit here; that's what KMC's for. So shut up, or get out.

I'm gonna take the 'shut up' option. What's really cool about me however is that I can actually hammer away at the keyboard without bellowing what I'm typing at the top of my voice. Some call it a talent, I just like to think of myself as gifted. So from here on in, Faunus, my mouth shall be zipped, and I'll continue typing while on mute. So we're call now, yeah?

To be fair Faunus, he didn't exactly leave. He was banned 8-9 times for his utter stupidity and complete lack of common sense. I guess he hasn't pissed off enough people here, yet.

Wrong as usual Darth Sex Therapy, it was for stealing a sig. Yeah, I know, I'm quite the e-criminal, doing badman stuff like that, no need to tell me. You know, I'm actually thinking of going a step further and stealing a sig and avatar. How gangstar will I be after that? Ooh, just thinking about it gives me chills.

[Ewok Spai]

Denial, Noobaris? Nobody was going to ban you 8 times for stealing a sig. You got banned 8 times because you got virtually wtfpwned in every debate and you couldn't keep your mouth, or e-mouth shut, as you've proven on this forum.

[sith'ari]

Firstly, I was never banned 8 times. Quit the lying.

Secondly, the subsuquent bans were due to having created a new account after the original that was banned. The only person who got banned for such reasons that you mentioned was you, on this very website.

Thirdly, just felt like pointing out something else 'Darth Sexy' and 'tdtd' have in common:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/search.php?action=showresults&q=denial+userid%3A82150

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/search.php?action=showresults&q=denial+userid%3A97982

Lol.

[Illustrious]

Cut it out. If you want to quip, you can do it on KMC or some other forum.

[Ewok Spai]

Oh right, it was Noobaris who was accusing me of being TDTD on KMC, which resulted in another ban. Thats lovely Noobaris, continue the self pwnage.

[Illustrious]

Oh right, it was Noobaris who was accusing me of being TDTD on KMC, which resulted in another ban. Thats lovely Noobaris, continue the self pwnage.
Did you bother to read the post before yours? It's not negotiable.

You can quip on KMC or somewhere else.

[Ewok Spai]

Fair enough, the guy just irks the piss out of me. I'm confused, I got a warning, or 2 rather, for defending myself?

[Janus]

He only warned once, not sure why it's at 33%.

Oh well. Just keep your nose dry. Any more rambling off topic and I'll be handing more than just warnings out. There are such things as PMs, folks. Let's keep this about Bane's novel and EU.

[zephiel7]

TD got banned again? What did he do this time?

[sith'ari]

Is it just me or is anyone else extremely put off by the possible cover for this novel: http://www.starwars.com/eu/lit/novel/news20071010.html? I'm personally hoping that there will be a different cover for the book, as it has an extremely lame feel to it, but on another note, if you read this Dave:

And Darth Bane is led by Force-induced visions to a moon where he will acquire astonishing new knowledge and power -- power that will alter him in ways he could never have imagined...

Drew K also stated in his blog that "Ro2" would largely stay consistant with the Bane of the Sith short story, and that Bane does indeed go to Dxun directly after the end of PoD, where he acquires 'astonishing new knowledge,' so no holocron retcon it seems.

[Lsnake]

One retcon apparently: Zannah's an adult when this happens?

Oh, and since when the hell did Bane kill Hoth?

[sith'ari]

So it seems. Unless the order of the synopsis is royally fucked and it happens during the part of the novel that directly leads off from PoD (which is actually what Drew said in his blog before the synopsis was made).

Yeah, I don't get what's up with that either. At best, it was through Bane's actions and manipulation of Kaan that Hoth died; hardly at his hands, which implies a personal kill. He was killed directly from the thought bomb, which is made obvious in all of the NSW material, and directly confirmed in the Dark Forces saga, and even still, how the hell would his padawan even know that? It's probably just an indirect voicing off what Johun believes the truth to be.

But really, the nonsensical plot outline along with the shitty cover art and I'm really not as hyped up about this book as I used to be.

[Lsnake]

Watch Drew try to hype up Malak this time.

Yeah, the summary explicitly says Hoth died at Bane's hand. I know Drew has issues with his 'Screw continuity, I'm an ARTISTE!' responses, but can't he stick to what he WRITES?

And Johun doesn't even know Bane existed...it's common knowledge Hoth died in the Thought Bomb, recorded galactic history, even!

this'll be a library book at best.

[sith'ari]

Heh, I wouldn't put it beyond him to hype up fricking Nemo (random Jedi who got killed by the guardian of the Star Map in Dantooine). Man loves his characters. But yeah, the retcons are pretty silly, though I personally don't mind them quite as much as most. I still think it'll probably be a very good book though, I can definitely see it making the New York Times bestseller list like PoD did.

[Lsnake]

Just about every Star Wars book makes the Times list. Eragon made the times list. Laurell K. Hamilton and Terry Goodkind make the Times List consistently. That's not a huge indication of quality.

I think I would be a bit more forgiving if Drew wasn't such a giant dick when called out on it. He's good with games, but novels?

And also...what's the point of Zannah getting sudden doubts? Is there any plot line he ISN'T rehashing, or will Bane be revealed as Johun's father?

[sith'ari]

I actually don't think that would be such a bad idea. What I liked most about PoD was how Drew was able to make Bane's path to the darkside realistic and a real struggle, and making Bane feel far more humane than he had previously been portrayed in the process. I'm personally not a fan of the near instant and compelte transitions to the darkside that most darksiders appear to have gone through (examples: Nadd, Exar Kun) and if he does the same with Zannah that he did with Bane, I think that would be the best way to handle it. Zannah is, after all, still an 8 year old girl, and Tomcat (who's obviously the one being referred to) was pretty much her world before JvS, so it would make sense that her embrace of the darkside might be questioned with his appearance.

[Lsnake]

I hardly find it totally realistic. Bane bounces about from personality to personality as the plot dictates. He's more developed than 'insta-darksider' like Kun, but still...his sudden transformation is a tad odd.

And just look at the cover...this's over a decade later, Zannah's not a kid any more.

Zannah also returns to Ruusan with the intention of killing Tomcat, it would seem.

[Mr Pink]

Didn't Tomcat die in the comic? Wasn't he killed by Zannah or crushed by a rock or something?

[Lsnake]

Bug was crushed by a rock. Zannah blows off Tom's hand, but he lives

[sith'ari]

I hardly find it totally realistic. Bane bounces about from personality to personality as the plot dictates. He's more developed than 'insta-darksider' like Kun, but still...his sudden transformation is a tad odd.

Well, if you consider how terrible Bane's childhood had been (death of his mother at an extremely young age, abusive father, constant hard labour), the fact that he had never truly set out to join the darkside but was simply pushed along the path (he only joined the sith army for a way out of punishment for his crimes on Apatros, and then the Sith Academy for similar reasons; he was only really put into those positions because the alternative was simply far less appealing), and then his training at the BoD and the trials he faced along the way (for example his spur of the moment killing of the Forhargh, the realisation of the fact that he had instinctively used the force to kill his father) and a few further steps along the way (Revan's holocron for instance was what really pushed him over), I'd say his path to the darkside was actually very realistic, and very well done; Drew appears to have actually made Bane progress through the stages at a slow but good and more importantly, realistic pace, and I give him props for that.

And just look at the cover...this's over a decade later, Zannah's not a kid any more.

Drew's stated that the book isn't actually going to be set under one timeframe, but shifting through different parts of Zannah's training. The cover (which most likely won't be the end result) could simply be displaying a much later part of the book.

Zannah also returns to Ruusan with the intention of killing Tomcat, it would seem.

Given his retcons of actual primary source material, I doubt a single line in the NEC is gonna mean much to him.

[Lsnake]

From the start, Bane is seen, despite his hardships, relatively well adjusted and even likable. He bounces around the plot, changing personalities as it dictates. I never got a sense he 'fell' so much as 'did a 180.' And having Bane become teh uber in a maximum of three years isn't realistic. It's better than Exar Kun, but he had least had a measure of training in the Force beforehand.

And Zannah returning to kill Tom was actually from the WOTC articles.

[sith'ari]

From the start, Bane is seen, despite his hardships, relatively well adjusted and even likable.

True, though he was likely used to the life had been given. He certainly displays bitterness about how the Republic with all its power allowed such hardship, and we know from when he was younger that he was really suffering emotionally, to the point where he wanted his own father to die. Plus, such emotional scars aren't always so visible. Really, I would think that his hardships definitely had a huge longterm impact, given how he had already instinctively been using the darkside by that point.

He bounces around the plot, changing personalities as it dictates. I never got a sense he 'fell' so much as 'did a 180.'

How so? The only times I can think of when he goes through truly significant emotional changes near instantly is after an extremely significant event takes place. First time is when he kills Forhargh: the first time he had ever killed someone to his knowledge [at the time], he was bound to go through a significant change there. Second time is when the realisation that he had killed his father takes place, that's even worse.

And having Bane become teh uber in a maximum of three years isn't realistic. It's better than Exar Kun, but he had least had a measure of training in the Force beforehand.

Well Bane not only appears to have had exceptional strength in the force (directly stated as being far greater than that of the entire BoD! He would most likely have one of the highest non Skywalker potentials out there), but his learning rate was extraordinary (mastering force lightning in less than an hour and creating area effect storms and tearing up a room ftw) and he was also a lot older than most students of the force and at a pretty high level of emotional maturity and discipline. Though yeah, his rise to power was likely the most unrealistic part of the book. "Ro2" will make him freaking ridiculous.

And Zannah returning to kill Tom was actually from the WOTC articles.

Ahh Ok. Well that's even worse anyway.

[Ewok Spai]

It's impressive, 3 years to become quite powerful. However, Kun was more powerful with less than a year of dark side teachings, so it would be logical to assume Bane is a top 10 powerhouse, but there are quite a number of charaters that are superior to him.

[sith'ari]

Exar Kun has his Jedi training and superior Sith knowledge however. Anyways, Exar's probably got the highest force potential there is disregarding the Skywalkers, but Bane comes close, and the fact that his is probably not as great as Kun's doesn't say much against him.

I'd probably list the following as being more powerful than Bane: Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion, Darth Sidious, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, Kyp Durron, UnuThul, Lord Nyax and Zonama Sekot. Possibly Darth Traya and Revan as well. Not quite top 10 imo (as I used to think). Potentially? Absolutely. He'll probably climb up the ranks after "Ro2."

[Ewok Spai]

Exar Kun has his Jedi training and superior Sith knowledge however. Anyways, Exar's probably got the highest force potential there is disregarding the Skywalkers, but Bane comes close, and the fact that his is probably not as great as Kun's doesn't say much against him.

I'd probably list the following as being more powerful than Bane: Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion, Darth Sidious, Luke Skywalker, Darth Caedus, Kyp Durron, UnuThul, Lord Nyax and Zonama Sekot. Possibly Darth Traya and Revan as well. Not quite top 10 imo (as I used to think). Potentially? Absolutely. He'll probably climb up the ranks after "Ro2."

Speculation. And I highly doubt ANYBODY had more force potential than Sidious (skywalkers aside). I'm not too sure why Jacen is included in there but I guess it's the author's inconsistencies. Bane is up there but I'd venture to say Ragnos is above Bane and Kun.

[sith'ari]

Speculation. And I highly doubt ANYBODY had more force potential than Sidious (skywalkers aside).

Sidious' potential has never been stated as being anywhere near as exceptional as that of somebody like Bane (again, I can't stress enough on the fact that Bane's potential far eclipsed the entire BoD's). Hell, wasn't his potential something like less than half of Luke's? The same Luke that was said to have had a rival in Kyp when it comes to force potential? I guess Kyp would have greater strength in the force by that alone then.

Anyways, forming a comparison between RotS Sidious and Bane/Exar, Sidious was much older, an outright super genius (like me) meaning a pretty large growing rate on the same level as Bane and Exar, had a greater knowledge base to learn from than either of them (though it's debatable with Exar, definite with Bane), and much more time to grow in power. Yet, his showings in RotS (lack of displays of great power in situations that would call for it + signs of weakness in comparison) make it very clear that he's not quite on the level of people like Bane and Kun. So, what reason is there for that exactly other than having a lower force potential? Much lower I'd say actually, and it would make sense.

Kun was basically the Ancient's Chosen One that Naga Sadow feared the arrival of, and Bane was the Sith'ari aka the perfect being. Sidious was a nobody in that sense, and would have been nothing if it weren't for Bane and his actions. Sidious' greatness belongs to Bane by that line of thought alone. There was only ever gonna be one Sith'ari, who would make the Sith become as strong as they did. A number of people could have done what Palpatine did, he wasn't chosen in any sense of the word. Without Bane, the Sith would never have gotten as strong as they did. Without Palpatine, Bane's teachings and actions would still have ensured that the Sith had gotten that strong.

I'm not too sure why Jacen is included in there but I guess it's the author's inconsistencies.

You know, I've never quite understood why you've always had it in for Jacen. I wouldn't so much as label his rise in power by LotF as an inconsistency, but moreso something that makes sense if you put certain facts into perspective. Let's try that:

1. He has the Skywalker potential.

Thus, insane learning rate.

2. He's lived through war for most of his life.

Thus, insane combat experience.

3. He spent five years travelling the Galaxy, and spent the entire time learning as much as he could from different force sensitive groups.

Thus, an insane amount of knowledge gained in an insanely small amount of time, which always leads to an insane increase in power when it comes to Star Wars (refer to Bane, Exar, the Keeto siblings and virtually anyone).

I'd say his extreme rise in power would make a lot of sense.

Bane is up there but I'd venture to say Ragnos is above Bane and Kun.

Possibly. Nadd's spirit was a freaking monster when it comes to power, and Marka Ragnos' older spirit was certainly capable of ordering him around. Plus, he was the "Most Powerful of the Most Powerful" during the Sith's Golden Age. Someone below him in power was capable of wiping out the life of an entire planet with one force attack (Sources: TotJ Companion + PoD). I'll stop here as I'd feel a little silly copying the old KMC crowd's arguments, but yeah, all of that stuff too. He might even be the most powerful Sith ever

[Lsnake]

I think the new Death Star novel just confirmed who the most powerful Sith is, and who had the most force potential. The quote goes something to the lines of: "The Emperor had known it would be thus. He was completely in concert with the Dark Side. He was the most powerful Sith that had ever existed."

Ragnos might be second best, but that's all he and the others can fight over.

Oh, and Sith'Ari? You need to stop trying to put your logic over canon. Palpatine is outright stated as the most powerful Sith of Bane's entire order at the time of ROTS. You heard what Chee said about onscreen feats, so it needs to plain stop. You cannot redo canon when it doesn't match your opinion.

And really, Palpatine knew more of the ancients than Kun could ever have hoped to. If anyone was the chosen one of the Dark Side, he was. No other overthrew the Republic or the Jedi. None.

So yes, Sith'Ari: enough with this irritating bias. You can't rewrite canon to suit your predetermined opinion. The sooner you just accept it gracefully, the sooner a lot of people will respect you more.

[Ewok Spai]

All Noobaris is doing is rehashing the same destroyed arguments from KMC. That's why he's here.

Palpatine was born with such immense power, that the force created Anakin to counter him.

[Lsnake]

Oh, and Death Star apparently confirms Anakin has the highest midichlorian per cell count in history

[Ewok Spai]

I thought this was confirmed in the NEC and other sources? What is this death star novel and what is the exact phrase about Sidious?

[sith'ari]

I think the new Death Star novel just confirmed who the most powerful Sith is, and who had the most force potential. The quote goes something to the lines of: "The Emperor had known it would be thus. He was completely in concert with the Dark Side. He was the most powerful Sith that had ever existed."

Given that I haven't seen this from the source firsthand, and neither have you from what you've been saying, I think this is best left ignored. BTW, nothing about potential there, and given the context ("completely in concert with the darkside"), his power in this sense might be derived from his dedication to the darkside. He was able to act fully for the darkside, and accomplish the most for it out of any other sith. In that sense, he was the most powerful.

Ragnos might be second best, but that's all he and the others can fight over.

Well I will say that given the evidence we have, Palpatine is logically the most powerful. But that doesn't make it definite, and it doesn't mean that he can't be beaten in a fight by any other sith. I'd certainly put Nihilus and Kun over him in a one on one fight. Remember, force power and overall combat prowess don't perfectly correlate.

Oh, and Sith'Ari? You need to stop trying to put your logic over canon. Palpatine is outright stated as the most powerful Sith of Bane's entire order at the time of ROTS.

Are you talking about the DSSB quote? That was in respect to overall power, not power with the force itself. It outright references his political knowledge and intellect. Plus, the quote makes a statement about Bane's order, and then Sidious and Maul, and then goes on to say "the Most Powerful of these was..." There is no indication given whether the statement was referring to the entire order, or just Sidious and Maul. The quote amounts to nothing.

You heard what Chee said about onscreen feats, so it needs to plain stop. You cannot redo canon when it doesn't match your opinion.

Yes, I remember what Chee said perfectly, but that doesn't mean I can't use the highest form of canon to form an argument. Fact is, both Yoda and Palpatine display a very incompetent command of the force while in action with the minimal speeds at which they're able to toss the senate pods around, and given the importance of winning the battle, it's best to conclude that what they display is the best they can do.

And really, Palpatine knew more of the ancients than Kun could ever have hoped to. If anyone was the chosen one of the Dark Side, he was. No other overthrew the Republic or the Jedi. None.

Achieving a lot in no way means that he was 'chosen.' Bane and Exar were the sith that were predicted as having a great purpose for their order. At best, Palpatine was only able to achieve what he did because of Bane. He was far from being the darkside's Chosen One.

So yes, Sith'Ari: enough with this irritating bias. You can't rewrite canon to suit your predetermined opinion. The sooner you just accept it gracefully, the sooner a lot of people will respect you more.

Hey, you don't see me arguing against EU speeds because of what we see in the movies do you? I hardly argue against canon as I may have used to, I'm simply just choosing not to ignore the signs of weakness that the movie characters display in the highest form o canon, and not blindly accepting these random quotes you bring up which hardly ever conclusively prove what you believe they do.

[Ewok Spai]

Given that I haven't seen this from the source firsthand, and neither have you from what you've been saying, I think this is best left ignored. BTW, nothing about potential there, and given the context ("completely in concert with the darkside"), his power in this sense might be derived from his dedication to the darkside. He was able to act fully for the darkside, and accomplish the most for it out of any other sith. In that sense, he was the most powerful.
Which could also be attributed to his potential. I guess you conveniently ignore the fact that he single handidly unbalanced the force against tens of thousands of jedi and was so powerful that the force had to create a "chosen one" to counter his abilities. No Noobaris, it's apparent that Sidious had maybe the highest non skywalker (Luke and Anakin) force potential out there.




We have NUMEROUS sources that prove he's the most powerful, making it definite. What do you mean he can't be beaten by any other sith? Kun? Nihilus? I guess you forget that Sidious has attacks that would put either character on their ass. And if this is DE Sidious, there's no doubt he'd wipe the floor with these two.

[quote]Are you talking about the DSSB quote? That was in respect to overall power, not power with the force itself. It outright references his political knowledge and intellect. Plus, the quote makes a statement about Bane's order, and then Sidious and Maul, and then goes on to say "the Most Powerful of these was..." There is no indication given whether the statement was referring to the entire order, or just Sidious and Maul. The quote amounts to nothing.
You have argued this pitiful point to death on KMC and lost in every instance, so stop rehashing it on a new forum.



Yes, I remember what Chee said perfectly, but that doesn't mean I can't use the highest form of canon to form an argument. Fact is, both Yoda and Palpatine display a very incompetent command of the force while in action with the minimal speeds at which they're able to toss the senate pods around, and given the importance of winning the battle, it's best to conclude that what they display is the best they can do.
Except the description of their battle states that they were moving at incredible speeds, and GL had to slow it down for the audience to see, just like with the Sidious vs. Mace fight.



Achieving a lot in no way means that he was 'chosen.' Bane and Exar were the sith that were predicted as having a great purpose for their order. At best, Palpatine was only able to achieve what he did because of Bane. He was far from being the darkside's Chosen One.
LOL. You are the most retarded person I've seen on these forums, constantly debating against facts. Bane was the sith'ari of his time, Exar Kun wasn't, however Palpatine WAS the chosen one of the dark side. "A sith born with the power to bring the sith out of hiding and destroy the jedi, Sidious was this man". He was the only one who fully mastered the darkside and who had the dark side serve HIM. He was stated by the ancients as the greatest and the strongest of them all, so yes Noobaris, Sidious WAS the chosen one of the darkside, which is why the "Chosen One" was created to counter him.



Hey, you don't see me arguing against EU speeds because of what we see in the movies do you? I hardly argue against canon as I may have used to, I'm simply just choosing not to ignore the signs of weakness that the movie characters display in the highest form o canon, and not blindly accepting these random quotes you bring up which hardly ever conclusively prove what you believe they do.
You shouldn't debating ever again, you're pitiful at it and you don't learn.

[sith'ari]

All Noobaris is doing is rehashing the same destroyed arguments from KMC. That's why he's here.

Palpatine was born with such immense power, that the force created Anakin to counter him.

No, all that's ever said is that Anakin would come in the time of greatest despair. If you're going to copy everything Gideon says, Dave, try not to add your silly misinterpretations.

[Lsnake]

Given that I haven't seen this from the source firsthand, and neither have you from what you've been saying, I think this is best left ignored. BTW, nothing about potential there, and given the context ("completely in concert with the darkside"), his power in this sense might be derived from his dedication to the darkside. He was able to act fully for the darkside, and accomplish the most for it out of any other sith. In that sense, he was the most powerful.
ah, here we go again: "But all this means something TOTALLY DIFFERENT!"
Burden of proof time. And stop trying to make Occam slash his own wrists.

I've seen the quote. It says exactly that. Narration, at that.
I didn't say it was potential. It's about power. And the quote's pretty unambiguous.



Well I will say that given the evidence we have, Palpatine is logically the most powerful. But that doesn't make it definite, and it doesn't mean that he can't be beaten in a fight by any other sith. I'd certainly put Nihilus and Kun over him in a one on one fight. Remember, force power and overall combat prowess don't perfectly correlate.
I love how, when totally unable to argue one point, you decide to opt out completely. What are Nihilus' combat skills? How do Kun's top Palpatine's?
Oh, and if you read PoD, force powers are quite closely related to combat ability.



Are you talking about the DSSB quote? That was in respect to overall power, not power with the force itself.
You've been asked for proof before. you've failed to provide it. Occam's Razor again. It says power. What does it mean?
Or is Bane's power mean...powerful knowledge? Yeah, seems just as logical

It outright references his political knowledge and intellect. Plus, the quote makes a statement about Bane's order, and then Sidious and Maul, and then goes on to say "the Most Powerful of these was..." There is no indication given whether the statement was referring to the entire order, or just Sidious and Maul. The quote amounts to nothing.
You mean how it directly says Bane founded an Order and the most powerful of these was Darth Sidious? Unless Bane is somehow exempt from his own order...
It says Palpatine is the most powerful and then goes on to list his greatest weapons. Those aren't two directly correlated ideas, especially when the DSSB never references power in such a way for anyone else.

I love this, Sith'Ari...whenever it might threaten your viewpoint, it must be something totally different.



Yes, I remember what Chee said perfectly, but that doesn't mean I can't use the highest form of canon to form an argument.
Who's in charge of canon management? Him. Who isn't? You. Who's the better source? Him. Who said the EU feats are fine? Him.
Who loses the argument right there? You

Fact is, both Yoda and Palpatine display a very incompetent command of the force while in action with the minimal speeds at which they're able to toss the senate pods around, and given the importance of winning the battle, it's best to conclude that what they display is the best they can do.
OK. And by high forms of canon, they're still the best. Ergo, all else can be either dismissed as hyberbolic descriptions of incompetent writers since G and C definite canons>Your opinion, thanks for playing.



Achieving a lot in no way means that he was 'chosen.' Bane and Exar were the sith that were predicted as having a great purpose for their order.
And they failed. Palpatine didn't. Who does the Dark Side favor?

At best, Palpatine was only able to achieve what he did because of Bane.
And at best, Bane was only able to achieve what he did because of Revan. Who was only able to achieve what he did because of Exar who was only able to achieve what he did cause of Sadow who was only able to achieve what he did because of Ragnos who was only able to achieve what he did because of Xendor!
It's so OBVIOUS...Xendor is the true Dark Side Chosen one!
He was far from being the darkside's Chosen One.
Who took over the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi Order on his own?
Palpatine.
Who didn't?
Everybody else. Bane founding the order based on tenets that Palpatine was the one to reject means....just that. Palpatine>Bane in achievment



Hey, you don't see me arguing against EU speeds because of what we see in the movies do you?
Hey, if you can form such asinine arguments to discredit the movies, which are higher canon, and the movie people are the best either:
The movie people CAN do that
Or the EU is wrong. All of it.

I hardly argue against canon as I may have used to, I'm simply just choosing not to ignore the signs of weakness that the movie characters display in the highest form o canon, and not blindly accepting these random quotes you bring up which hardly ever conclusively prove what you believe they do.
Well, they're still canon. I advise you to accept and get over it. The sooner you do that, the sooner you'll be able to argue this well.

[Ewok Spai]

No, all that's ever said is that Anakin would come in the time of greatest despair. If you're going to copy everything Gideon says, Dave, try not to add your silly misinterpretations.

Except i don't need to copy anyone's arguments to defeat yours, Noobaris. Still can't manage to get one in the W column huh?

[sith'ari]

ah, here we go again: "But all this means something TOTALLY DIFFERENT!"

Quit your whining, and actually read my argument. You seem absolutely incapable of understanding the context that the statement is given in.

Burden of proof time.

Good Lord Lightsnake, I thought you might have actually familiarised yourself with how the burden of proof works by now, but apparently not. Now don't be ridiculous; you brought up the quote, and you are the one trying to prove something here. The burden of proof is on you, which means fully explaining how the quote means what you're trying to prove. Which it doesn't, so good luck.

And stop trying to make Occam slash his own wrists.

If you're going to attempt a joke, at least understand what you're making a joke about. Understanding that there is more than one definition for 'power' is not going against Occam's Razor.

I've seen the quote. It says exactly that. Narration, at that.

If you've really seen the quote, why say that you only 'think' that the novel said such, and why use the word apparently when referencing other parts of the story? I'm guessing that you haven't since gone and bought and started reading the book, so you're clearly lying.

I didn't say it was potential.

Lightsnake: I think the new Death Star novel just confirmed who the most powerful Sith is, and who had the most force potential.

Lies will get get you nowhere Lightsnake, especially when you're on an internet forum where everything you say is recorded for anyone to see.

It's about power. And the quote's pretty unambiguous.

No it's not. It outright references his dedication to the darkside just before it's stated.

I love how, when totally unable to argue one point, you decide to opt out completely. What are Nihilus' combat skills? How do Kun's top Palpatine's?

How am I opting out here? I directly responded to what you were saying.

For Kun: Effortlessly draining thousands of Massassi, freezing thousands of beings in place, completely resisting the wall of light technique ("most devestating technique of the lightside") by a guy who had been using it for centuries, without prior knowledge of the ability, + all that stuff he did as a 4 thousand year old spirit.

For Nihilus: Draining millions of force sensitives in what can be argued as a pretty quick time with no real effort needed, with a technique that Traya -- a historian with an extremely high understanding of the power -- described as a technique that can't be defended against.

Sidious doesn't compare. His best feats include killing hundreds of storm troopers with force lightning (a great feat to be sure, but clearly outclassed with what Kun and Nihilus can do to thousands), and being able to summon a force storm (which is completely ueless in a 1 on 1 scenario due to Palpatine's limited control (directly stated at the end of issue 3 of Dark Empire that he doesn't have complete control over them) coupled along with the sheer size of the storm; which has also been stated as being in Freedon Nadd's arsenal of powers, as well as that of both numerous Ancient Jedi Masters and the Ancient Sith; and which by its very description is not requiring any exceptional power to be able to summon).

[quote]Oh, and if you read PoD, force powers are quite closely related to combat ability.

God: Remember, force power and overall combat prowess don't perfectly correlate.

Also, the fact that you bring up PoD makes me think you're not understanding what I mean when I say 'combat prowess.' I mean overall fighting ability, not just lightsaber combat.

You've been asked for proof before. you've failed to provide it.

Lying won't save you Lightsnake. I've posted the quote at KMC countless times, and I've even posted it here before.

Occam's Razor again. It says power. What does it mean?

Again, there's more than one definition for the word 'power.'

Or is Bane's power mean...powerful knowledge? Yeah, seems just as logical

Irrelevant misdirection won't save you from the fact that you're incapable of analysing context, Lightsnake.

You mean how it directly says Bane founded an Order and the most powerful of these was Darth Sidious? Unless Bane is somehow exempt from his own order...

Quit ignoring what I'm saying. The last reference it makes before it mentions power is that of Maul and Sidious, the then current Master and Apprentice. It could apply to either them, or the entire Ro2 order, so the quote amounts to nothing.

It says Palpatine is the most powerful and then goes on to list his greatest weapons. Those aren't two directly correlated ideas, especially when the DSSB never references power in such a way for anyone else.

Yes, it goes on to list his greatest weapons which includes both combat related "weapons" and intellect related "weapons" meaning power aka "the strength of one's weapons," in this context, refers to both his intellect as well as his force ability.

I love this, Sith'Ari...whenever it might threaten your viewpoint, it must be something totally different.

Quit the whining. I'm getting tired of how you have a hissy fit whenever I disagree ith your "Palpatine = the uber" beliefs.

Who's in charge of canon management? Him. Who isn't? You. Who's the better source? Him. Who said the EU feats are fine? Him.
Who loses the argument right there? You

How about going back and re-reading what I just said.

God: Yes, I remember what Chee said perfectly, but that doesn't mean I can't use the highest form of canon to form an argument.

Reading. Is. Your. Friend.

I'm simply saying that I'm allowed to use the highest form of canon to form my arguments, only you would confuse that with actually ignoring all other forms of canon. Clearly you actually do realise that they contradict on a subconscious level, for you to make such a connection.

OK. And by high forms of canon, they're still the best. Ergo, all else can be either dismissed as hyberbolic descriptions of incompetent writers since G and C definite canons>Your opinion, thanks for playing.

...I really fail to see what argument you're attempting to make here. Are you actually trying to argue that because C-Canon material depicts characters performing better than character in G-Canon material, that the C-Canon stuff is hyperbolic simply because it's a lower level of canon? Lol...

I forgot that in the wonderful world of Lightsnake that the canon hierarchy fully correlates with the level of power hierarchy. My bad man. Palpatine > Exar and Nihilus because he's featured in the movies, makes loads of sense. :rolleyes:

And they failed. Palpatine didn't. Who does the Dark Side favor?

Neither failed. Bane indirectly ensured that the Sith grew stronger than they had ever been, and Kun restored the Sith to power. And again, you're still not understanding that Palpatine achieving lots doesn't mean that he was the darkside's Chosen One. Following the different prophecies, his achievements are solely credited to Bane, someone who actually was chosen for a specific purpose, meaning that Palpatine wasn't chosen for any specific purpose.

And at best, Bane was only able to achieve what he did because of Revan. Who was only able to achieve what he did because of Exar who was only able to achieve what he did cause of Sadow who was only able to achieve what he did because of Ragnos who was only able to achieve what he did because of Xendor!
It's so OBVIOUS...Xendor is the true Dark Side Chosen one!

The fundamental point you're missing is that there was only ever gonna be one Sith'ari. Bane could have gained the inspiration and knowledge to fulfill his destiny from any great Sith. It didn't have to be Revan, and Bane's actions could have lead to what he was foretold to do through a number of different ways, not just through Palpatine. Bane aka the Sith'ari was the one chosen to make the Sith as strong as they became, the roles of the people before and after could have been given to a number of others. Would have made no difference to the prophecy. But Bane's role? Could have only done by Bane aka The Sith'ari, as that was what had been foretold.

Who took over the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi Order on his own?
Palpatine.
Who didn't?
Everybody else. Bane founding the order based on tenets that Palpatine was the one to reject means....just that. Palpatine>Bane in achievment

Again, you're not understanding that achievements don't make one special and chosen for a particular task. The fact that Bane was foretold as fulfilling what Palpatine in part did would indicate to anyone with half a brain that Palpatine's achievements do not make him the darkside's Chosen One. They're credited to Bane, not Palpatine, as far as prophecies go.

Hey, if you can form such asinine arguments to discredit the movies, which are higher canon, and the movie people are the best either:
The movie people CAN do that
Or the EU is wrong. All of it.

Is this actually supposed to be a cogent argument? Refer to what I bolded. That's where your premise fails. No canon material ever states that the movie characters are the best. That would be your unsupported and idiotic opinion.

Well, they're still canon. I advise you to accept and get over it. The sooner you do that, the sooner you'll be able to argue this well.

Yes, they are canon, but that doesn't make your interpretation of the quotes canon. Come back to me when you can actually properly analyse context. Until then, have fun jacking off to your new Death Star novel which you apparently both have, and don't have...

[Lsnake]

Quit your whining, and actually read my argument. You seem absolutely incapable of understanding the context that the statement is given in.
It boils down to me providing the proof and you either outright ignoring it or claiming it doesn't mean what it actually means



Good Lord Lightsnake, I thought you might have actually familiarised yourself with how the burden of proof works by now, but apparently not. Now don't be ridiculous; you brought up the quote, and you are the one trying to prove something here. The burden of proof is on you, which means fully explaining how the quote means what you're trying to prove. Which it doesn't, so good luck.
The burden of proof shifts the second you try to twist it to fit your ridiculous views.
The quote speaks for itself. You think it means anything different? PROVE IT.



If you're going to attempt a joke, at least understand what you're making a joke about. Understanding that there is more than one definition for 'power' is not going against Occam's Razor.
No. Trying to twist the quote when it's clearly self evident and applies in no other place is a violation of occam's razor.



If you've really seen the quote, why say that you only 'think' that the novel said such, and why use the word apparently when referencing other parts of the story? I'm guessing that you haven't since gone and bought and started reading the book, so you're clearly lying.
Jessiah does have it, however, and he's been kind enough to give me quite a few quotes from it.

Recognize 'think' as irony dear Sith'ari.
You accusing people of lying is like being accused of incompetence by Custer.


Lightsnake: I think the new Death Star novel just confirmed who the most powerful Sith is, and who had the most force potential.

Lies will get get you nowhere Lightsnake, especially when you're on an internet forum where everything you say is recorded for anyone to see.
How willfully ignorant can you be?
Recognize sarcasm and irony, darling.



No it's not. It outright references his dedication to the darkside just before it's stated.
completely in concert? You mean his connection to it? It says 'he is the most powerful Sitht who has ever lived.'
Yeah, it MUS mean something different! Just like those other five dozen quotes!
Amazing how NONE of them mean what logic dictates they do.

[quote]I love how, when totally unable to argue one point, you decide to opt out completely. What are Nihilus' combat skills? How do Kun's top Palpatine's?

How am I opting out here? I directly responded to what you were saying.

For Kun: Effortlessly draining thousands of Massassi, freezing thousands of beings in place, completely resisting the wall of light technique ("most devestating technique of the lightside") by a guy who had been using it for centuries, without prior knowledge of the ability, + all that stuff he did as a 4 thousand year old spirit.
Palpatine: Effortly drains millions of being, controls millions more and is capable reconnecting himself to the Force after returning from Chaos after Dark Empire.
None of that translates to combat ability, try again.

For Nihilus: Draining millions of force sensitives in what can be argued as a pretty quick time with no real effort needed, with a technique that Traya -- a historian with an extremely high understanding of the power -- described as a technique that can't be defended against.
Great. And Palpatine has it as well. And unlike Nihilus can make himself totally invinsible in the Force, so nihilus can't find him, let alone use the technique on him.
And Palpatine can drain worlds as well, so try again.

Sidious doesn't compare. His best feats include killing hundreds of storm troopers with force lightning (a great feat to be sure, but clearly outclassed with what Kun and Nihilus can do to thousands)
Liar.
He's drained planets, mindwiped millions, drained six billion on Byss, was so powerful, his clash with Luke was felt by every Force sensitive in the galaxy, mastered all the secrets of the ancient Empire...

, and being able to summon a force storm (which is completely ueless in a 1 on 1 scenario due to Palpatine's limited control (directly stated at the end of issue 3 of Dark Empire that he doesn't have complete control over them) coupled along with the sheer size of the storm; which has also been stated as being in Freedon Nadd's arsenal of powers, as well as that of both numerous Ancient Jedi Masters and the Ancient Sith; and which by its very description is not requiring any exceptional power to be able to summon).
*Yawn*
Try again, you lying fanboy. Freedon Nadd's force storm is nothing more than meteorologic, given that only Palpatine is listed as knowing the Force Storm.

Oh, and do tell how Naddykins can defend an Electromagnetic torpdeo? Also in Palpatine's arsenal.
And you're a goddamn liar AGAIN: the Force Storm is described as the most powerful Dark Side technique in existence. You know all of this and you still get called out.




God: Remember, force power and overall combat prowess don't perfectly correlate.
Because you say so, of course

Also, the fact that you bring up PoD makes me think you're not understanding what I mean when I say 'combat prowess.' I mean overall fighting ability, not just lightsaber combat.
Oh, good. So Palpatine having mastered 'all known, previously unknown and forgotten' techniques and being described as the most powerful Sith in history puts him firmly above.
Y'know, for the logical.



Lying won't save you Lightsnake. I've posted the quote at KMC countless times, and I've even posted it here before.
Whenever somebody pwns you, they're liars. Right



Again, there's more than one definition for the word 'power.'
And yet, it's never applied to any other Force User.



Irrelevant misdirection won't save you from the fact that you're incapable of analysing context, Lightsnake.
And it won't stop you from being an idiot, but you can try.
The only msdirection is your immature whining over different meanings while failing to prove it



Quit ignoring what I'm saying. The last reference it makes before it mentions power is that of Maul and Sidious, the then current Master and Apprentice. It could apply to either them, or the entire Ro2 order, so the quote amounts to nothing.
Right. It refers to Palpatine as the most powerful of an order of two people after detailing Bane's order.
Which makes sense?
Which goes against your Bane love?
The answer is obvious



Yes, it goes on to list his greatest weapons which includes both combat related "weapons" and intellect related "weapons" meaning power aka "the strength of one's weapons," in this context, refers to both his intellect as well as his force ability.
Prove up. t says he's the most powerful and then lists his greatest weapons as well. It doesn't negate the references to his force ability



Quit the whining. I'm getting tired of how you have a hissy fit whenever I disagree ith your "Palpatine = the uber" beliefs.
You know something? I'm tired of you lying, twisting facts and being a stupid brat whenever anyone gives you absolute proof that doesn't support your preconceived notions.

You're wrong. Get over it



How about going back and re-reading what I just said.

God: Yes, I remember what Chee said perfectly, but that doesn't mean I can't use the highest form of canon to form an argument.

Reading. Is. Your. Friend.
Logic is yours. Chee interprets canon. It's his job. He's against you. What does that mean?

I'm simply saying that I'm allowed to use the highest form of canon to form my arguments, only you would confuse that with actually ignoring all other forms of canon. Clearly you actually do realise that they contradict on a subconscious level, for you to make such a connection.
And perhaps you can't get this:
The man whose job it is to interpret canon and the man behind G-canon disagree with you.
Game over.



...I really fail to see what argument you're attempting to make here. Are you actually trying to argue that because C-Canon material depicts characters performing better than character in G-Canon material, that the C-Canon stuff is hyperbolic simply because it's a lower level of canon? Lol...
No, because other canon declares the people in G-canon superior.
A. C-canon is hyperbolic
B. G-canon characters are stronger than you admit

I forgot that in the wonderful world of Lightsnake that the canon hierarchy fully correlates with the level of power hierarchy. My bad man. Palpatine > Exar and Nihilus because he's featured in the movies, makes loads of sense. :rolleyes:
Or because he's got better feats and quotes backing him up.




Neither failed. Bane indirectly ensured that the Sith grew stronger than they had ever been, and Kun restored the Sith to power.
Oh. So Kun brought about a golden Age of the Sith? Bane didn't get killed?

And again, you're still not understanding that Palpatine achieving lots doesn't mean that he was the darkside's Chosen One. Following the different prophecies, his achievements are solely credited to Bane, someone who actually was chosen for a specific purpose, meaning that Palpatine wasn't chosen for any specific purpose.
Don't be an idiot. If you can help it.
When are his achievments credited to Bane? Bane founded the order Palpatine used: just another tool. Palpatine made everything happen



The fundamental point you're missing is that there was only ever gonna be one Sith'ari. Bane could have gained the inspiration and knowledge to fulfill his destiny from any great Sith. It didn't have to be Revan, and Bane's actions could have lead to what he was foretold to do through a number of different ways, not just through Palpatine. Bane aka the Sith'ari was the one chosen to make the Sith as strong as they became, the roles of the people before and after could have been given to a number of others. Would have made no difference to the prophecy. But Bane's role? Could have only done by Bane aka The Sith'ari, as that was what had been foretold.
Bane's not the Sith'Ari. He is never canonically stated as such and until then?
Palpatine trumps Bane in power, intelligence, accomplishment and impact. Bane doesn't supercede him in a thing.
amazing...Bane was the only person who could've done what he did...but no, anybody could've overthrown the Republic and the Jedi. Right




Again, you're not understanding that achievements don't make one special and chosen for a particular task. The fact that Bane was foretold as fulfilling what Palpatine in part did would indicate to anyone with half a brain that Palpatine's achievements do not make him the darkside's Chosen One. They're credited to Bane, not Palpatine, as far as prophecies go.
When did Bane do anything besides simply found the Order?
And circular logic: "Cuz Bane's the Sith'Ari, he's the one in the Prophecy!"
until it's canonically stated, Bane isn't the Sith'Ari. Deal with it.



Is this actually supposed to be a cogent argument? Refer to what I bolded. That's where your premise fails. No canon material ever states that the movie characters are the best. That would be your unsupported and idiotic opinion.
Canonicaly material state Yoda and Palpatine are the best.
Yet you refuse to accept it



Yes, they are canon, but that doesn't make your interpretation of the quotes canon. Come back to me when you can actually properly analyse context. Until then, have fun jacking off to your new Death Star novel which you apparently both have, and don't have...

Time to prove up, you stupid little nitwit. What does 'power' mean? Power in the force. It is applied all the time throughout Star Wars. To Mace, Yoda, Luke, Anakin, Marka Ragnos, Bane, Qordis and Kopecz (Two of the most powerful Sith of the Brotherhood), Maul....every. Single. Time. It is a clear reference to Force power. Palpatine has nearly a dozen quotes referencing his power.
Only THEN do you whine and throw a fit over how it's not valid because it must be your interpretation. rather than somehow use LOGIC and maybe decide POWER=POWER AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN REFERENCED IN REGARDS TO FORCE USERS.

[Ewok Spai]

Quit your whining, and actually read my argument. You seem absolutely incapable of understanding the context that the statement is given in.
It's funny how in your deluded little world, everybody is incapable of understanding your 'argument', yet somehow, everybody always beats you. Interesting.



Good Lord Lightsnake, I thought you might have actually familiarised yourself with how the burden of proof works by now, but apparently not. Now don't be ridiculous; you brought up the quote, and you are the one trying to prove something here. The burden of proof is on you, which means fully explaining how the quote means what you're trying to prove. Which it doesn't, so good luck.
Seeing as how you are possibly the WORST debater to ever come to these forums, I think you need to stop lecturing superior debaters on various parts of a "debate".




If you've really seen the quote, why say that you only 'think' that the novel said such, and why use the word apparently when referencing other parts of the story? I'm guessing that you haven't since gone and bought and started reading the book, so you're clearly lying.
Except for the fact that LS has a reputation for being completely truthful whereas you make shit up randomly to get your "point" across.



Lies will get get you nowhere Lightsnake, especially when you're on an internet forum where everything you say is recorded for anyone to see.
And yet, apparently stupidity got you onto another forum after you've been banned from the first one.


For Kun: Effortlessly draining thousands of Massassi, freezing thousands of beings in place, completely resisting the wall of light technique ("most devestating technique of the lightside") by a guy who had been using it for centuries, without prior knowledge of the ability, + all that stuff he did as a 4 thousand year old spirit.
Ah how cute, you take something that is 100% speculation and turn it into a fact. Since you're a moron I'm not going to ask you to prove Kun "effortlessly" drained anybody without the use of sith power objects because, well you can't. Therefore, you have no argument, as usual.

For Nihilus: Draining millions of force sensitives in what can be argued as a pretty quick time with no real effort needed, with a technique that Traya -- a historian with an extremely high understanding of the power -- described as a technique that can't be defended against.
A technique that is said to have no defense 4,000 years bby doesn't mean there isn't a defense for it currently. In fact, looping out of the force IS a defense for it.

Sidious doesn't compare. His best feats include killing hundreds of storm troopers with force lightning (a great feat to be sure, but clearly outclassed with what Kun and Nihilus can do to thousands), and being able to summon a force storm (which is completely ueless in a 1 on 1 scenario due to Palpatine's limited control (directly stated at the end of issue 3 of Dark Empire that he doesn't have complete control over them) coupled along with the sheer size of the storm; which has also been stated as being in Freedon Nadd's arsenal of powers, as well as that of both numerous Ancient Jedi Masters and the Ancient Sith; and which by its very description is not requiring any exceptional power to be able to summon).
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Sidious surpasses every sith even by ROTS. He has the ability to instakill using his anger, as well.

Also, the fact that you bring up PoD makes me think you're not understanding what I mean when I say 'combat prowess.' I mean overall fighting ability, not just lightsaber combat.
And Sidious is by far, a smarter fighter than anyone you've mentioned, as shown during his fight with Yoda.



Lying won't save you Lightsnake. I've posted the quote at KMC countless times, and I've even posted it here before.
You haven't provided anything on KMC except outrageous laughter and bans.


Irrelevant misdirection won't save you from the fact that you're incapable of analysing context, Lightsnake.
Lying to yourself won't save you from the fact that you're utterly incompetent with zero debating skills.


Quit the whining. I'm getting tired of how you have a hissy fit whenever I disagree ith your "Palpatine = the uber" beliefs.
Except Palpatine=Uber and Palpatine=the best=fact, not beliefs. But you're the poster child for arguing against facts.

I forgot that in the wonderful world of Lightsnake that the canon hierarchy fully correlates with the level of power hierarchy. My bad man. Palpatine > Exar and Nihilus because he's featured in the movies, makes loads of sense. :rolleyes:
No, Palpatine>all of the rest because there are NUMEROUS sources proving this, PLUS the ancient sith ADMITTING it. You're an idiot.



Neither failed. Bane indirectly ensured that the Sith grew stronger than they had ever been, and Kun restored the Sith to power. And again, you're still not understanding that Palpatine achieving lots doesn't mean that he was the darkside's Chosen One. Following the different prophecies, his achievements are solely credited to Bane, someone who actually was chosen for a specific purpose, meaning that Palpatine wasn't chosen for any specific purpose.
Except Revan accomplished much more than Kun and was the closest out of any sith lord to conquering the republic through military might.



The fundamental point you're missing is that there was only ever gonna be one Sith'ari. Bane could have gained the inspiration and knowledge to fulfill his destiny from any great Sith. It didn't have to be Revan, and Bane's actions could have lead to what he was foretold to do through a number of different ways, not just through Palpatine. Bane aka the Sith'ari was the one chosen to make the Sith as strong as they became, the roles of the people before and after could have been given to a number of others. Would have made no difference to the prophecy. But Bane's role? Could have only done by Bane aka The Sith'ari, as that was what had been foretold.
Nowhere does it say there could be only 1 sith'ari. IT was said that Adas was the sith'ari. Bane could very well be the sith'ari but that means absolutely nothing about his personal power. Sidious was the darkside's chosen one.



Again, you're not understanding that achievements don't make one special and chosen for a particular task. The fact that Bane was foretold as fulfilling what Palpatine in part did would indicate to anyone with half a brain that Palpatine's achievements do not make him the darkside's Chosen One. They're credited to Bane, not Palpatine, as far as prophecies go.
By your logic, Bane's philosophy is credited to Revan. But it's hilarious watching you poorly attempt to diminish a character because you can't debate.



Is this actually supposed to be a cogent argument? Refer to what I bolded. That's where your premise fails. No canon material ever states that the movie characters are the best. That would be your unsupported and idiotic opinion.
Except there's ample proof, GL's stating they are the "prime of the jedi" (knowing you you're going to try to argue this with semantics". Face it, the PT Jedi overall are the most powerful out of any jedi order.

[sith'ari]

It boils down to me providing the proof and you either outright ignoring it or claiming it doesn't mean what it actually means

No, providing the quote alone without an explanation doesn't classify as providing proof. I've quite clearly explained how the context of the passage would indicate that power isn't in reference to 'fighting power' in this case, and your only replies have been whining about how power only ever means one thing in the SW universe, claiming that I'm defying Occam's razor, and illogically attempting to shift the burden of proof onto me. Truly wonderful Lightsnake.

The burden of proof shifts the second you try to twist it to fit your ridiculous views.
The quote speaks for itself. You think it means anything different? PROVE IT.

No, it only shifts with very extreme cases. Recognising that power in the very nature of the word is ambiguous, correctly analysing the context, providing an alternate and logical meaning behind the quote, and understanding that the quote isn't conclusive doesn't classify as an extreme case. Try again.

No. Trying to twist the quote when it's clearly self evident and applies in no other place is a violation of occam's razor.

Self evident to you and you alone apparently. Refer to the above, I am in no way defying Occam's Razor, it's with me on this one.

Jessiah does have it, however, and he's been kind enough to give me quite a few quotes from it.

Just like that time with the DE Sourcebook quote? That "the most powerful Sith in history had risen" in reference to Sidious was on page 109? Funny how when I asked Gideon whether he really had come up with the quote, he didn't know what you were talking about. Funny indeed.

Either way, you haven't 'seen' it, so quit the lying. It's getting tiring.

Recognize 'think' as irony dear Sith'ari.


I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you actually attempting to deny lying even in the face of absolute proof by saying some weird shit that no one can understand?

You accusing people of lying is like being accused of incompetence by Custer.

Now this would be truly hilarious if not for the fact that I outright prove that you lie in virtually every debate we're both in. Your unique ability at humour doesn't change the fact that you lied, I pointed it out, and you can't properly respond.

How willfully ignorant can you be?
Recognize sarcasm and irony, darling.

Again, quit with the weird shit that makes zero sense. So claiming that the quote speaks for Sidious' potential, and then denying that you said that was all irony and sarcasm? Whatever you say "darling."

completely in concert? You mean his connection to it? It says 'he is the most powerful Sitht who has ever lived.'

Completely in concert with the darkside, meaning that his full dedication was for the darkside, and the darkside alone. That would make him the most powerful Sith ever, because his dedication meant that he went to lengths that others wouldn't that put him in a position where he was truly the most powerful, from a political and military standpoint.

Yeah, it MUS mean something different! Just like those other five dozen quotes!

Five dozen? More like five! And they're all either in-universe, or inconclusive. What you don't seem to understand, Lightsnake, is that you can have 100 quotes, but if none of them are conclusive, they mean jack.

Amazing how NONE of them mean what logic dictates they do.

Your sense of logic clearly differs with that of most then.

Palpatine: Effortly drains millions of being,

This is said where exactly? Your'e clearly confusing this with draining Byss.

controls millions more

This is said where exactly? Last time Gideon brought this up, I asked the same, and he said that you claimed it was stated in the NEGtC. And as surprising as it sounds, it turns out that the feat was nowhere to be found within the source. Surprising indeed.

and is capable reconnecting himself to the Force after returning from Chaos after Dark Empire.

He was capable of living as a force spirit (Andur Sunrider FTW!!) and was able to create clones of himself through technology, which he could enter and go back to being physically alive. In other words, the first part is requiring a power level on par with Andur "The Force God" Sunrider, and the second is in relation to technology. Oh wow.

None of that translates to combat ability, try again.

Right, so draining beings of their life force, freezing beings in place, resisting force powers, and displaying vast TK abilities and the ability to overpower force users as a spirit has nothing to do with combat? No, that would be the last thing you mentioned in the part of your post that I just previously replied to. Aside from all of that, we know that he possesses "Dark Armour" which can deactivate a lightsaber upon impact, as well as an unique form that he invented, meaning that all he has to do is close the distance between himself and Sidious and then proceed to whoop his ass in saber combat.

Great. And Palpatine has it as well. And unlike Nihilus can make himself totally invinsible in the Force, so nihilus can't find him, let alone use the technique on him.
And Palpatine can drain worlds as well, so try again.

Palpatine draining an unknown amount of energy from Byss throughout many spread out years doesn't compare to effortlessly and quickly draining millions of force sensitives, try again Lightsnake. And you've offered no proof that Palpatine can utilise the drain as effectively anyway. And lol, using the force to conceal his force sensitivity and alignment somehow translates into making himself invisible and undetectable from Nihilus' force drain? Lol.

Liar.

Calling me a lair whenever you disagree with me only shows your inability to understand simple words. But continue as you will by all means.

He's drained planets,

He drained an unknown amount of energy from Byss over many spread out years. The fact that we don't even know how much energy he drained means that this feat proves nothing.

mindwiped millions,

You're lying, he did no such thing.

drained six billion on Byss,

"You're lying, he did no such thing."

was so powerful, his clash with Luke was felt by every Force sensitive in the galaxy,

Where exactly is this shown? Certainly not in the comic. I'm guessing you're lying yet again. Too predictable Lightsnake.

mastered all the secrets of the ancient Empire...

Another unsupported statement, and blatant lie. He certainly hadn't mastered the Ancient Sith ability of prolonging his life, given that that was why he even needed to drain energy from Byss in the first place. Oops, there goes your argument.

*Yawn*
Try again, you lying fanboy. Freedon Nadd's force storm is nothing more than meteorologic, given that only Palpatine is listed as knowing the Force Storm.

This is bullshit, and you know it. The TotJ Companion's description of the force storm is identical to that in the Dark Empire comics and sourcebook, and Nadd is stated to being able to use that specific power.

Oh, and do tell how Naddykins can defend an Electromagnetic torpdeo? Also in Palpatine's arsenal.

A random force ability invented by a no name darksider? I'm guessing with a force shield, or a number of other defences Nadd has in his arsenal.

And you're a goddamn liar AGAIN: the Force Storm is described as the most powerful Dark Side technique in existence. You know all of this and you still get called out.

Not arguing with that. Your inability to read properly doesn't make me a liar. The power's very description states that knowledge of the ability alone grants the user limited control over it. Palpatine's own words in the Darkside Compendium state that it was through knowledge, strength of will, and usage of his emotions that he was able to use the technique. Not strength in the darkside.

The fact that the power was stated as such in no way refutes what I was saying, so as usual, your attempt of a rebuttal was laughable at best.

Because you say so, of course

They don't. Kaan was immensely powerful in the force, yet his strengths lay in force persuasion, not combat. Lumiya's great ability with the force allows her to create immensely powerful force vision, and enables her to hide her presence from people as powerful as Luke, yet she's constantly shown to suck ass in combat, to the point where she loses a direct force battle against a no name Jedi Knight, and can barely overpower another no name Jedi with the help of Alema Rar. Fact is, they don't perfectly correlate. There are a many more examples of that.

Besides, as usual, this argument is becoming too much for you, and you're getting lost within it. I'll remind you: you tried to act as if I was denying that combat prowess and force ability are closely linked, and I simply posted what I was saying to show you how I was in no way denying that. If this is really getting too much for you big guy, I'll allow you to go and have a nap. Until then, I'd really suggest not arguing something that you can't win.

Oh, good. So Palpatine having mastered 'all known, previously unknown and forgotten' techniques

Laugh.My.Ass.Off.

For anybody who actually wants the real quote, it is:

"It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure."

Quit lying, Liarsnake.

and being described as the most powerful Sith in history puts him firmly above.
Y'know, for the logical.

Like this thread proves, when you make a claim, chances are it's not quite the truth. Nothing describes him that way in the sense you're thinking of, and if there is: PROVE! UP!

Whenever somebody pwns you, they're liars. Right

Liarsnake = the bullshit (http://www.edge-of-destiny.com/forums/f37-arena-discussion/t322-top-10-most-powerful-force-users-22.html)

In fact, considering I already owned you on that point in that very thread, I think I'll just post it again.

Wrong, we've been over this so many times.

'When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the sith'

You are referring to this, correct?
If so, then there are two major flaws.

1. 'The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious.' - you assume that the 'these' refers to the entire order of sith lords that was set down by Darth Bane, when it can just as easily be interpreted that the 'these' refers to the then current two sith lords. So basically, the argument is inconclusive, and can't be used.

2. Power is ambiguous, you can't deny this. Now when the passage states that Sidious is the most powerful, it also lists his weapons (some would define 'weapon' as 'tool of power', so to speak) as not only strength in the darkside, knowledge of the darkside, and an enormous wealth of artifacts and equipment, but also political knowledge and skills in manipulation; intellect related attributes, so in this context, power is clearly not purely related to combat prowess, but intellect as well.

Now please, this argument is invalid, how about stop repeating it.

Let's hope your rebuttal's better this time round.

In fact, I'm just going to post your original rebuttal purely for the comedy factor.

Lightsnake:
1. Escape provided the source and the quote to the page, I trust him long before I trust you.

2. Lol. Right, power is ambiguous. It's only ever been used to mean actual power in the Force in Sw.
Bullshit from someone whose back is to the wall.

Typical lightsnake, whining about how power is limited to one definition within the SW universe, and bringing up some random bullshit.

Truly laughable.

And yet, it's never applied to any other Force User.

Given that I can't be bothered to check up on whether or not you're lying as you usually are, let's assume for argument's sake that you're right here; since when does the fact that it's never been used in such a way mean that it can't? Another example of the illogic of an extreme Sidious fanboy. As if a high probability is proof of a certainty.

And it won't stop you from being an idiot, but you can try.
The only msdirection is your immature whining over different meanings while failing to prove it

No, analysing your quotes is not misdirection. Even if I was incorrect, and whining at the same time, it still wouldn't be misdirection. You clearly don't understand the term. Bringing up Bane and what I might or might not do if he were in Sidious' position is what misdirection is.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Right. It refers to Palpatine as the most powerful of an order of two people after detailing Bane's order.
Which makes sense?
Which goes against your Bane love?
The answer is obvious

Since when exactly is detail an indication here? I can just easily say that the quote must have been referring to the then current order of two simply because that was directly the last thing stated. Fact is, neither is an indication. It's simply ambiguous. Your inability with understanding the English language is not my problem.

Prove up. t says he's the most powerful and then lists his greatest weapons as well. It doesn't negate the references to his force ability

It doesn't negate them, but it doesn't exclusively indicate them either. The only option that can be taken is to accept that it's more logical that the meaning behind power was overall given the context, and accept the ambiguity of the statement. Either way, I win. The quote's inconclusive, you can't prove anything from it.

You know something? I'm tired of you lying, twisting facts and being a stupid brat whenever anyone gives you absolute proof that doesn't support your preconceived notions.

You're wrong. Get over it

*Yawn*

Debate, or don't reply. In case you didn't notice, I'm really not interested in having a conversation with you.

Logic is yours. Chee interprets canon. It's his job. He's against you. What does that mean?

Oh wow. So I simply say that I'm going to form an argument based off of the highest form of canon, and somehow Leland disagrees with me? I'm guessing Lucas should hire a new "Head of Canon," then. Yeah, more like, as usual, you're misinterpreting what everyone's saying, and myself and Leland are not in disagreement here.

And perhaps you can't get this:
The man whose job it is to interpret canon and the man behind G-canon disagree with you.
Game over.

Lightsnake, either learn to read or I'm not continuing this with you.

No, because other canon declares the people in G-canon superior.
A. C-canon is hyperbolic
B. G-canon characters are stronger than you admit

No, as usual, you're lying. No canon source declares them superior. The KMC standard interpretation won't change anything here.

Or because he's got better feats and quotes backing him up.

Not one of his feats is on par with Nihilus' and Exar's drain showings.

Oh. So Kun brought about a golden Age of the Sith?

No, you're confusing what the Ancients say, and what Nadd says of the prophecy. It was simply stated that he'd restore the Sith order to glory. Which he did. Briefly.

Bane didn't get killed?

Since when does Bane dying change anything? He still ensured that the Sith grew stronger than ever before, through his actions.

Don't be an idiot. If you can help it.
When are his achievments credited to Bane? Bane founded the order Palpatine used: just another tool. Palpatine made everything happen

Are you seriously this dumb? As far as prophecies are concerned, Bane was foretold to do (albeit, indirectly) what Palpatine directly did. Meaning that in that sense, Bane receives the credit, not Palpatine. So there goes your little theory about Palpatine being the darkside's Chosen One. Unlucky about that.

Bane's not the Sith'Ari. He is never canonically stated as such and until then?

The Sith'ari prophecy only refers to one being, and Bane's the only one who perfectly applies. Meaning that he's the Sith'ari. Not Palpatine like you used to believe, get over it.

Palpatine trumps Bane in power, intelligence, accomplishment and impact. Bane doesn't supercede him in a thing.

Entirely your opinion, don't say it as if it's a fact. Given Bane's astronomical level of power by the end of BotS, I'd say he could well be above Palpatine in power. Certainly potential given his growth in power in three years and the fact that Bane's is attributed as being far greater than the entire PoD's.

Intelligence, very debatable. Bane's learning ability is the greatest thus far seen in the entire mythos, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Palpatine's destruction of the jedi order. Plus, it didn't take Bane years to do what he did like it did Palpatine.

Accomplishments, Bane's = Palpatine's by default, and Bane's impact was clearly far greater, given he destroyed the system that would have ensured that the darkside never prevail, and began the system which ensured that it eventually did.

amazing...Bane was the only person who could've done what he did...but no, anybody could've overthrown the Republic and the Jedi. Right

As usual, you're missing the point. Bane's destiny was set in stone by virtue of the prophecy. the Sith'ari's role could have only ever been fulfilled by him, much like the Chosen One's role could have only ever been fulfilled by Anakin. Palpatine's role could have been filled by someone else, it was never predicted that the final trigger would have been brought about by just one specific person.

When did Bane do anything besides simply found the Order?
And circular logic: "Cuz Bane's the Sith'Ari, he's the one in the Prophecy!"
until it's canonically stated, Bane isn't the Sith'Ari. Deal with it.

Already dealt with, moving on, though in responce to what I've bolded: are you high old man? I never actually made that argument, though the argument itself isn't an example of circular logic. The prophecy speaks of the Sith'ari you freaking dumbass. That's what the prophecy is. Seriously man, this is one of many reason why you're an amateur.

Canonicaly material state Yoda and Palpatine are the best.
Yet you refuse to accept it

No, I refuse your botched interpretation of it.

Time to prove up, you stupid little nitwit. What does 'power' mean? Power in the force. It is applied all the time throughout Star Wars. To Mace, Yoda, Luke, Anakin, Marka Ragnos, Bane, Qordis and Kopecz (Two of the most powerful Sith of the Brotherhood), Maul....every. Single. Time. It is a clear reference to Force power. Palpatine has nearly a dozen quotes referencing his power.
Only THEN do you whine and throw a fit over how it's not valid because it must be your interpretation. rather than somehow use LOGIC and maybe decide POWER=POWER AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN REFERENCED IN REGARDS TO FORCE USERS.

"Given that I can't be bothered to check up on whether or not you're lying as you usually are, let's assume for argument's sake that you're right here; since when does the fact that it's never been used in such a way mean that it can't? Another example of the illogic of an extreme Sidious fanboy. As if a high probability is proof of a certainty."

Yet again Lightsnake, you just got served.

[Ewok Spai]

No, providing the quote alone without an explanation doesn't classify as providing proof. I've quite clearly explained how the context of the passage would indicate that power isn't in reference to 'fighting power' in this case, and your only replies have been whining about how power only ever means one thing in the SW universe, claiming that I'm defying Occam's razor, and illogically attempting to shift the burden of proof onto me. Truly wonderful Lightsnake.
I'm sure lightsnake will respond to this and seeing as I have nothing better to do at this time, and you are incredibly easy to debate against, i'll throw my part into your pwnage. So, you haven't explained anything, because the power that was being referred to was personal power, not political power. Stop trying to play semantics yet again when your points have been lost.



No, it only shifts with very extreme cases. Recognising that power in the very nature of the word is ambiguous, correctly analysing the context, providing an alternate and logical meaning behind the quote, and understanding that the quote isn't conclusive doesn't classify as an extreme case. Try again.
If I want blatant pseudointellectualism, i'll rejoin my intro to philosophy class.



Just like that time with the DE Sourcebook quote? That "the most powerful Sith in history had risen" in reference to Sidious was on page 109? Funny how when I asked Gideon whether he really had come up with the quote, he didn't know what you were talking about. Funny indeed.
I wouldn't take your word on anything you say, nor would anybody else, especially after Escape has clearly stated that LS has all of these sources and has provided them. So has Advent. Shut up now.

Either way, you haven't 'seen' it, so quit the lying. It's getting tiring.
What's getting tiring is you constantly getting WTFPWned and having the audacity to continue typing.


Now this would be truly hilarious if not for the fact that I outright prove that you lie in virtually every debate we're both in. Your unique ability at humour doesn't change the fact that you lied, I pointed it out, and you can't properly respond.
Here's the funny thing. You've never won a single debate and everybody and their mothers have acknowledged it. Yet you, who is severely mentally handicapped and unstable, seem to be telling yourself that you've either proven something in any debate, or have caught someone in a lie. Reality>you.


Completely in concert with the darkside, meaning that his full dedication was for the darkside, and the darkside alone. That would make him the most powerful Sith ever, because his dedication meant that he went to lengths that others wouldn't that put him in a position where he was truly the most powerful, from a political and military standpoint.
Guess what tool, Sidious was the only sith lord to have successfully mastered the dark side, and have the dark side serve him.



Your sense of logic clearly differs with that of most then.
No, YOUR sense of logic differs from that of most.

He was capable of living as a force spirit (Andur Sunrider FTW!!) and was able to create clones of himself through technology, which he could enter and go back to being physically alive. In other words, the first part is requiring a power level on par with Andur "The Force God" Sunrider, and the second is in relation to technology. Oh wow.
Yea, and Palpatine lives as pure energy, wow can't say that for any other sith ever, including your boyfriend Bane.



Right, so draining beings of their life force, freezing beings in place, resisting force powers, and displaying vast TK abilities and the ability to overpower force users as a spirit has nothing to do with combat? No, that would be the last thing you mentioned in the part of your post that I just previously replied to. Aside from all of that, we know that he possesses "Dark Armour" which can deactivate a lightsaber upon impact, as well as an unique form that he invented, meaning that all he has to do is close the distance between himself and Sidious and then proceed to whoop his ass in saber combat.
Draining with the assistance of a sith object, you sound like a blubbering idiot when in one debate you can't conclusively prove anything and in the other, you pass it off as fact. Freezing non force sensitives has no application towards a fight with someone as powerful as Sidious. Vast TK abilities? Try raising a super star destroyer from Coruscant. Whoop his ass in saber combat? LOL. First you'd have to establish he was superior to Sidious in saber combat. ROTS Sidious, after 13 years of not picking up a saber stood toe to toe with Mace, who would arguably defeat Kun in a saber bout. DE Sidious would most certainly WTFPWN Kun.



Palpatine draining an unknown amount of energy from Byss throughout many spread out years doesn't compare to effortlessly and quickly draining millions of force sensitives, try again Lightsnake. And you've offered no proof that Palpatine can utilise the drain as effectively anyway. And lol, using the force to conceal his force sensitivity and alignment somehow translates into making himself invisible and undetectable from Nihilus' force drain? Lol.
Except your point is moot because you have yet to prove Kun drained the Massassi himself. And yes, Sidious CAN loop out of the force.



Another unsupported statement, and blatant lie. He certainly hadn't mastered the Ancient Sith ability of prolonging his life, given that that was why he even needed to drain energy from Byss in the first place. Oops, there goes your argument.
Except for the fact that he lived as energy so he was basically immortal, so whoops, there goes your argument. Notice how he needed a jedi to bind his living force to him, and every jedi that ever came before, to destroy Palpatine once and for all.



This is bullshit, and you know it. The TotJ Companion's description of the force storm is identical to that in the Dark Empire comics and sourcebook, and Nadd is stated to being able to use that specific power.
You are a moron. Sidious created his own version of the force storm, which rips the fabric of space. This is FACT. NAdd knew the force storm? AHAHAHAHAAH wow you're getting desperate.



A random force ability invented by a no name darksider? I'm guessing with a force shield, or a number of other defences Nadd has in his arsenal.
Apparently Nadd wasn't good enough to even defeat beast riders.



Not arguing with that. Your inability to read properly doesn't make me a liar. The power's very description states that knowledge of the ability alone grants the user limited control over it. Palpatine's own words in the Darkside Compendium state that it was through knowledge, strength of will, and usage of his emotions that he was able to use the technique. Not strength in the darkside.
Who had more knowledge, more will, and more usage of his emotions than Sidious? Oh that's right, NOBODY. There goes your argument yet again.




They don't. Kaan was immensely powerful in the force, yet his strengths lay in force persuasion, not combat. Lumiya's great ability with the force allows her to create immensely powerful force vision, and enables her to hide her presence from people as powerful as Luke, yet she's constantly shown to suck ass in combat, to the point where she loses a direct force battle against a no name Jedi Knight, and can barely overpower another no name Jedi with the help of Alema Rar. Fact is, they don't perfectly correlate. There are a many more examples of that.
Kaan was immensily powerful in the force? Gosh Noobaris, you LOVE making shit up when you can't debate don't you? Kaan was known to do what? Oh that's right, have a good grasp of battle meditation. Anything else? OH right, no.

Besides, as usual, this argument is becoming too much for you, and you're getting lost within it. I'll remind you: you tried to act as if I was denying that combat prowess and force ability are closely linked, and I simply posted what I was saying to show you how I was in no way denying that. If this is really getting too much for you big guy, I'll allow you to go and have a nap. Until then, I'd really suggest not arguing something that you can't win.
Noobaris, you lost the minute you decided to add your input.

You are referring to this, correct?
If so, then there are two major flaws.

1. 'The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious.' - you assume that the 'these' refers to the entire order of sith lords that was set down by Darth Bane, when it can just as easily be interpreted that the 'these' refers to the then current two sith lords. So basically, the argument is inconclusive, and can't be used.
Actually it's not inconclusive because various sources already claim that he's the most powerful ever. DE sourcebook confirms this with the ancients telling him he is the greatest and the strongest of them all. You lose.

2. Power is ambiguous, you can't deny this. Now when the passage states that Sidious is the most powerful, it also lists his weapons (some would define 'weapon' as 'tool of power', so to speak) as not only strength in the darkside, knowledge of the darkside, and an enormous wealth of artifacts and equipment, but also political knowledge and skills in manipulation; intellect related attributes, so in this context, power is clearly not purely related to combat prowess, but intellect as well.
Oh here we go. So instead of accepting facts, you are going to argue stupidity. Power is ambigous? Sidious was the most powerful sith ever! However, his GREATEST strength was his ability to manipulate.

Given that I can't be bothered to check up on whether or not you're lying as you usually are, let's assume for argument's sake that you're right here; since when does the fact that it's never been used in such a way mean that it can't? Another example of the illogic of an extreme Sidious fanboy. As if a high probability is proof of a certainty.
Claiming Sidious pwns all doesn't make him a Sidious fanboy, it makes him correct because its a fact. Now YOU on the other hand, are a Bane fanboy because you offer stupidity for an argument and constantly argue against facts.


Not one of his feats is on par with Nihilus' and Exar's drain showings.
1. Kun used sith power objects and you're still an idiot for passing this speculation off as fact
2. Sidious' force storm was more powerful than anything we've seen in the SW universe. His ability to destory ships, anything in its path.


Are you seriously this dumb? As far as prophecies are concerned, Bane was foretold to do (albeit, indirectly) what Palpatine directly did. Meaning that in that sense, Bane receives the credit, not Palpatine. So there goes your little theory about Palpatine being the darkside's Chosen One. Unlucky about that.
Bane receives credit for what Palpatine did? That is the stupidest thing I've heard on this forum. So in that case, Revan receives credit for what Bane did. Yet in reality, Palpatine receives credit for what Palpatine did because he did what the other sith lords could not. He was strong enough with the darkside to unbalance the force, which created the chosen one because of this, and he clouded the minds of the jedi for decades, while being under their very nose. Sorry, but he WAS the darkside's chosen one. You lose.


Entirely your opinion, don't say it as if it's a fact. Given Bane's astronomical level of power by the end of BotS, I'd say he could well be above Palpatine in power. Certainly potential given his growth in power in three years and the fact that Bane's is attributed as being far greater than the entire PoD's.
Astronomical level of power? LOL. Here goes the stupid bane fanboy. Keep arguing against facts. And the BOD was nothing to brag about. Sidious single handidly unbalanced the force against tens of thousands of jedi in the "prime of the jedi".

Intelligence, very debatable. Bane's learning ability is the greatest thus far seen in the entire mythos, and his destruction of the BoD certainly rivals Palpatine's destruction of the jedi order. Plus, it didn't take Bane years to do what he did like it did Palpatine.
This is yet another stupid, incorrect opinion.

Accomplishments, Bane's = Palpatine's by default, and Bane's impact was clearly far greater, given he destroyed the system that would have ensured that the darkside never prevail, and began the system which ensured that it eventually did.
I guess I've already used the "this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard" line but I must say it again. This it the most retarded thing ever stated on here and I can clearly see why you were banned 11+ times from KMC, by saying shit like that. Get it through your thick incompetent skull. Palpatine's accomplishments wtfpwn anythin Bane might have done.

Yet again Lightsnake, you just got served.

Actually you just got WTFPWNED for the millionth time. After this I don't know how you can even post again but knowing your incredible mental instabilities and denial, you'll respond with more useless shit. But please, make us laugh.

[sith'ari]

Whatever wasteman, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a dumbass 7 year old.

[Ewok Spai]

Translation: http://www.133thaxorz.us/wtfpwned2.gif

At least you finally admit it, and maybe you'll stop typing for good.

[Lsnake]

Put on hold so Sith'Ari and I can chat over IM

[sith'ari]

You know, I generally don't go on my internet persona IM much these days at all really, but if I catch you sometime, sure, we can talk over it, but really, I think we covered all that we needed to by PM. You apologized for your part in getting the debate as heated as it did, I apologized for mine, so really, there's not much more that needs to be said. I think that in the future, we just have to accept that our views on Star Wars couldn't differ more, and focus on something that we do agree on: that we both do actually like Star Wars. In terms of this debate, with the exception of the insults thrown (as I obviously don't think you're an idiot at all, you're not Darth David), I generally do stand by everything I said. We've had this debate dozens of times in the past and it's really not that important so we can just forget it if you want, or you could start another thread which I'd certainly be willing to participate in, but this thread itself isn't the place for it.

And David? Carry on posting your 'wtfpwned' pics all you want; your futile and lame attempts at copying Janus only prove one thing: that you're a very, very unoriginal and uncreative person. Now bye bye troll.

[Lsnake]

In all truth, I'd rather we chat just to work things out in a better environment.

[Ewok Spai]

In all truth, I'd rather we chat just to work things out in a better environment.

In all truth noobaris, you were thoroughly wtfpwned. I understand you have no concept of the term troll seeing as how you do it all the time and you've been banned for it 11+ times. Furthermore, how am I copying Janus? Or are you just trying to get the last word in after your pwnage?

[sith'ari]

I always get the last word in because I'm The Great One. Now quit while you're behind, Francine.

[sith'ari]

^Picture Posting level wtfpwnage.

[Ewok Spai]

This would make sense if you were able to wtfpwn anybody. The fact that you've been pwned and are making fun of yourself is hilarious.

[Traya]

Both of you, shut up. I don't intend for this thread to be turned into a juvenile pissing competition.

[Ewok Spai]

Both of you, shut up. I don't intend for this thread to be turned into a juvenile pissing competition.

I think you're a few days too late.

[Traya]

If I wanted your input on my decision, I would've asked for it. Now, carry on with the discussing of the topic.

[Illustrious]

In all truth noobaris, you were thoroughly wtfpwned. I understand you have no concept of the term troll seeing as how you do it all the time and you've been banned for it 11+ times. Furthermore, how am I copying Janus? Or are you just trying to get the last word in after your pwnage?
In all truth, I fail to see how this response is appropriate after Lightsnake extends a courtesy.

[Ewok Spai]

The response is based on my ongoing feud arguing with a wall Illustrious, so forgive me if I am not being civil, however I will stop.

[zephiel7]

Zephiel says: FLAME WAR

:flame-war: :flame-war: :flame-war: :flame-war: